Really Goofy Copedant

Peter Heckman · From: Seattle, WA

So I'm a complete newbie, bought a '79 Sho Bud LDG earlier this year. Finally got it cleaned and re-stringed. Was tuning out according to some YouTube procedure, but got hung up because it became obvious that the copedent on this instrument is very weird. From what I can tell, what's supposed to be on LKR according to the standard Emmons E9 setup is actually on RKL on this guitar. Not sure about the other two, they might be goofed up too.

So my question is: Is this something that some players desire? Really the question is should I start learning to play on this guitar as-is or should I just yank out the changer and spend another four months trying to get it back together the right way so I can learn on a "standard" set up?

I figure I can learn how to play either way, just don't want to permanently damage my brain. If somebody's heard of this maybe it's legit. The guitar sounds great, stays in tune, so I think somebody really cared for it... but maybe didn't know how to set it up or got a bad tech along the way. If I can, I'll upload the copedent that I backed into - it's the only way I could figure out to tune the thing that was close to different Emmons E9 things I found online.

Thanks so much for your help! Looking forward to learning this magnificent machine.
-pete
Seattle WA

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1979 Sho-Bud LDG 10 string (just starting to learn)
1981 Ebony Gibson ES-335
1991 Epiphone Les Paul
Late '40s Magnatone M-197-3-V Varsity Green MOTS (S/N #10018 , just rebuilt)

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

That’s a standard setup for older ShoBuds. Many people have the Eb change on RKL and the debate as to which is better still goes on today. Leave it as is and start learning to play.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

Peter Heckman · From: Seattle, WA

Thanks Kevin! Much appreciated!
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1979 Sho-Bud LDG 10 string (just starting to learn)
1981 Ebony Gibson ES-335
1991 Epiphone Les Paul
Late '40s Magnatone M-197-3-V Varsity Green MOTS (S/N #10018 , just rebuilt)

Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

You don't need to yank the changer out to change the setup. It's really pretty easy to move a few rods around if you want to have the "E" raise and lower both on the left knee. Smile

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"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan)

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

That's a legit copedent.

Like Kevin said, Sho-Bud shipped a lot of guitars with that setup (i.e., the E strings are lowered on RKL). Lots of people play this setup, since there isn't really a full "standard" Emmons copedent with regard to where that change is located. Just a couple flavors of "pretty common." What you have is pretty common -- but maybe not the most common.

One odd thing here: the RKR lever should also lower string 2 to D (using a feel-stop) before continuing on down to C# when you put a little more pressure on the lever.

Other than that, you're ready to rock.

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

I have that copedent on all of my E9 necks.It's what I learned on. What I like about the E lower on RKL is it does an OK faux B6 type tuning with pedals up and makes a nice little minor 6th with pedals down, plus it's easy to reach. The F# to G on LKR gets a good dominant 7th with pedals down. Handy when I need it, but out of the way when I don't.

It's true that's not the most common E9 copedent, but it's always worked for me.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Totally legit. E > D# on the right knee is absolutely my preference. As said above, changing things is not a big job but I wouldn't change a thing.
An undercarriage photo would be useful. Is it possible that there is hardware already there (that you are not recognizing) for the second string feeler stop ( D# > D > C# )? There is a way to get a weak feeler using the timing of the 9th string change but I'm not going to try to describe the process.
I have set up steels lacking feeler stops for beginners and I have set the second string to simply go D# > D . I consider this a fundamental change vs. the C# which can do some very cool stuff but is not essential.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Looks to be an adequate setup to me, too.

As for that 2nd string lower, my guitar is adjusted so that the 'stop' comes right as the 9th-string lower begins to engage.

As Jon said, there's a lot of cool stuff lowering the 2nd all the way to C# but, while that's how my E9 is configured, most of the time I have it tuned to drop to an exact D note; I think that this is more useful, with or without pedals A+B, and I sometimes find that 'stop' to be less-than precise.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

A number of Alaska steelers maintain that copedant in part to make it easier to play each other's guitars.

Once you learn your way around it's relatively easy to re-train your brain if and when you want to play another instrument or swap the E lower to LKR and the F# raise to RKL on that one. Personally I would not change this guitar but take the opportunity to learn how to get every ounce of music you can from it. Study what Lloyd Green himself has done with it for starters.

As for confusion in learning, at one time I had a 3+2 Pro I with both E's on the right that wailed for rock and roll gigs, and a D10 push-pull with the E changes mirrored on the left that got equal time with country and jazz work. Yes I goofed a time or two, but the adjustment was surprisingly easy.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I didn't know that Goofy played the pedal steel guitar...

Razz

Justin Emmert · From: Greensboro, NC

As has been said, it came standard on Shobuds back in the day and it's standard for Universal Tuning. Some pro's such as Paul Franklin still use it and I do as well because at one time I was playing a Uni tuning.

That being said, there is an argument for having E's both on the same leg. Simply because you will never raise and lower your E's at the same time, so you are missing out on some type of combination.

But if it's good enough for PF. Good enough for me.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There's nothing goofy about that setup. It is a very normal setup for a lot of players. As has been stated, putting E=>F on the left knee and E=>Eb on the right knee was pretty standard for Sho Buds.

You might as well cut straight to the chase for the definitive discussion on E's raise/lower on same knee vs. opposite knee - https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769.html. Read the whole discussion. I think Buddy and Paul lay the arguments out very clearly, pro and con, for each approach.

I'd put a feel-stop on the RKR for string 2 if you can. If you don't have a spring-loaded half-stop plunger on the guitar, then as Roger says, if you set the 9th string change so it starts to engage just when string 2 hits D, you should be able to get a reasonable string 2 feel-stop at D. Failing that, I'd set the string 2 RKR change to D as I use it more. Just a matter of loosening the nylon tuner so it stops at D instead of all the way down to C#.

Only significant change I personally would make is to change the string 7 F#=>G raise to a string 6 G#=>F# lower because I use that change a LOT. But starting out, you should be able to go, literally, years on that guitar exactly as it sits, without ever noticing the difference. And if/when you do feel the desire to change, that is soon enough to actually do it.

Reed Ohrbom · From: Hemet, California, USA

Larry Jamieson · From: Walton, NY USA

Mickey Adams or Micky Mouse?

Brooks Montgomery · From: Idaho, USA

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

Perhaps the 1/2 stop for the second string is on your guitar already , and has been disabled . That copedent was on my Emmons that bought a few years ago , and was close enough to my previous Emmons , that I left it like that . I do have the 1/2 stop on my 2nd string though .

Peter Heckman · From: Seattle, WA

Thanks again to all for the awesome info! And as it turns out, I *do* have the half-stop thing on String 2 for RKR. I didn't realize what the annotation was on the copedent but once I realized I tried and sure enough there was two positions. I now have that tuned as well! So I guess it wasn't so goofy after all. Thanks again for all the links and comments! Now that it's holding tune I get to start learning to play - I'm sure I'll have more questions.

Thanks all!
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1979 Sho-Bud LDG 10 string (just starting to learn)
1981 Ebony Gibson ES-335
1991 Epiphone Les Paul
Late '40s Magnatone M-197-3-V Varsity Green MOTS (S/N #10018 , just rebuilt)

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Lowering the E's on RKL is good enough for Paul Franklin, so it must be OK for you! I raise E's on RKR, lower on RKL, still makes sense to do both on the same knee, I just prefer the 1970s MSA setup my D10 came with, got used to it and it does have some advantages over the "standard copedent." I'll explain more if anyone is interested.
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Patrick Timmins · From: Seattle

No argument with John (my Sensei).

If you want to have both E's on the left knee; bring it by my shop in West Seattle. On a Sho-Bud, that's something I wouldn't even charge for. But E's on the left is what is currently considered standard for E9.

Patrick.

Patrick@tenstringsadmachine.com
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Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars!

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