fuzzy exstar s-12 vs. any d-10 - newcomer questions

Harrison Dole · From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

hi all,

i'm a new member to the forum and pretty new to the instrument overall. i recently picked up a used carter starter and am taking to it rather quickly. the fellow i purchased it from told me if i took to it i would be looking for something nicer sooner rather than later and he was right.

i am looking at buying something nice and that i can continue to grow into - so initially i was thinking a d-10. as my search has continued i've come across the fuzzy brand and the ability of their s-12s to change from e9 to b6/c6 depending on the model in the single neck. economically and 'ergonomically' this model is appealing, the cost is lower and it's smaller and easier to move.

however, as a newcomer, i have a few questions:

1. am i wrong in thinking that the extar s-12 is essentially a d-12 with e9 extended tuning and b6/c6 extended tuning in one neck?
2. outside of the pros of cost and portability, are there others?
3. are there cons to this s-12 outside of not being able to switch between the two tunings as easily as it would be on a d-10?
4. considering i don't know how to play in either b6 or c6 tuning at the moment, is there any reason one would be preferred? i know d-10s are typically e9/c6, but as i don't have to re-learn anything would b6 tuning essentially be the same? the cost is approximately a $500 additional cost between the exstar model being able to move to c6 tuning.

thank you!

- harrison

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

What I like about my U-12 is that the B6 side seems to relate to the E9 side a little more closely than the C6 neck does to E9 on a D-10. I can slip in and out of B6 without changing necks and without having to think in a different key.

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

Harrison,

Reach out to Greg Cutshaw. He owns a S-12 Excel with the tuning E9 to C6. Others have also said that it painless to make the switch with the lever that Mitsuo provides. The light weight has convinced me to order one of his S-10's as I am not a C6 player at all.

Ordering process is painless. Just waiting for delivery in the next few weeks.
_________________
Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Harrison, it's amazing that you figured all the trade offs of D-10 vs S-12 Excel so fast!

I have both a D-10 MSA and an Excel S-12 with the E9/C6 lever. I like the features of the MSA (light up fretboard) and also the extended E9 and extended C6 tunings of the Excel. You can't go wrong with either choice.

The extended tunings are really cool for more chromatic sounds on C6 and for fatter chords and rhythm vamps on E9th. The Excel switches real fast between tunings but the bottom two strings can be a little off pitch after switching and often require a light tune up after switching.

I added knee levers to my Excel for C6 use only so that requires me to reposition my left leg to switch from E9 to C6. Also keep in mind that only the right two knee lever switch copedants when flipping the changeover lever. All the other knee levers have fixed tunings.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/MSA%20Amber/MSA%20Amber.html

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm seriously considering a 12-string Excel, but I'm drawn towards a version of Johnny Cox' D-13th tuning.

My first communication with Mitsuo was promptly acknowledged but my last two have been ignored (apparently). No response, anyway.

With the D-13, no switching is required - you're in the D tuning constantly (a happy medium, pitch wise, between E9 and C6) and I figure that I can have everything I have now on both necks, but with 6 (maybe 7) pedals and 6 kneee-levers. There's be much consistency between it and my current two necks, as well.

The biggest hurdle may be learning to allow for that extra string (the 6th tone) at #5 between the root and the 5th (D and A).
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

Roger
It sometimes takes a couple of days before he responds.

At least that is the way it has been with me.
_________________
Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

This has been ten days at least. I merely enquired about how a deposit should be transmitted.

I love what he makes (I think - I've never played one), but this lack of response is slightly worrying. There've been two emails from me that have gone unanswered.

Do you think he's heard me play and doesn't want his guitars' reputation sullied? Smile

_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Harrison Dole · From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

thanks for all the input everyone, especially over the holiday weekend.

it seems i have misunderstood the exstar's lever mechanism and universal tuning at that (oops). please correct me if i am wrong as i have done a lot of misunderstanding along the way learning this instrument.... ha.

if were to order the e7/b6 s-12, there would be no lever and the 'b6' tuning comes from the additional strings allowing me to play in that key with the additional pedals, different grips. is this correct?

meaning, exstar's lever mechanism only comes into play with the psg being able to make the change to c6.

i wonder if mitsuo could build a 10 string with e9/c6, but that's probably a question for him.

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

He probably could and I thought of that but decided not to due to losing the lower 2 strings which help give the C6 its unique sound. The timbre of the C6 tuning would change with E9th strings as opposed to a heavier gauge of string.
_________________
Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Harrison Dole · From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

that's interesting and something i would not have thought of. great point.

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

I don't think the E9/C6 change would work on a 10 string. The low B string on E9 would need to go down nearly an octave to hit lowest C from C6. At that point everything would be unplayably loose and you still need to get another minor 3rd lower for the P8 change.

To clarify a bit more with the E9/C6 exstar setup you'd have 2 extra strings and a "gear shifter" that changes the whole tuning between C6 and E9, this really only works between a 12 string extended E9 and C6 because they are closer in pitch.

With E9/B6 universal instead of a gear shifter that locks in place you hold your E -> D# knee lever which makes the whole tuning into a big B6 so long as you the D string from the E9 tuning. Some people also have a lock on the E -> D# lever so they don't have to hold it in.

tom anderson · From: leawood, ks., usa

I used to have Mitzu’s u12 that had the lever shift on it switching from E-9 to B-6. AllU-12’s can switch between the two tunings by using the E-Eb knee lever. The switch was just there so you wouldn’t have to hold the knee lever in but I found it difficult to pull with my hand. Any U-12 will work for you if you don’t need that switch. I’ve never tried one of the E-9 to C-6 guitars he makes.

Colin Swinney · From: Wisconsin, USA

Does anyone know the base pricing on S-12's and D-10's? I can't seem to find it on the website.

Harrison Dole · From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

i was quoted:

d-10 - $4,990
s12 e9/b6, 8p/5k - $4,380
s12 e9/c6, 8p,5k - $4,830

standard color black - $150 upcharge for other
add'l p/k - $160
volume, tone, bypass switch package - $100

shipping $440-480

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Having a "Universal" instead a "Switchover", is that the question?

I played Universal and swore by it. I was taught by Maurice to look at it as ONE tuning. So, ONE tuning with 12 strings, 8 pedals and 5 levers attached to it.
If you listen to Jeff Newman playing it, you cold often not say which "side" he was playing either, because he too, did NOT look at it as 2 tunings on one neck when HE PLAYED (his TEACHING was geared towards D10 players, though).

I found this very appealing, and when you hear JN, MA play it... why would anyone want something else, right?

The counter argument is, that E9th-U is "weak" or "basic" on the 6th-"side". And if you disregard the availability of 7 or 8 pedals and 5 levers on "both sides"... well yes, there are some changes that the ones with 5 or more levers on their C6th will have are NOT present. That has nevertheless not hindered Maurice Anderson to go into history as the Chord King. And I have seen him play some of the C6th biggies spellbound on his E9th-U12 while they believed he was on his infamous Bb6 U12 wich was more 6th-loaded and had a simplified E9th on it.
And Buddy Emmons recorded his still today relevant Jazz album "Steel Guitar Jazz" in 1962 on a ShoBud with the "basic" BE-setup.
So again, why would anyone want something else, right?

I believe our fellow Forumite Carl Dixon was one of the first ones to have an S12 E9th-C6th guitar build by M. Fuji over 25 years ago. (I own that guitar and it's now an extended C6th), with the switch over lock which some had added to E9th-B6th guitars before.

It had two sets of LK clusters... so essentially a double neck on ONE neck.

I must say I laughed and walked away shaking my head over that idea at first as I found it useless, beyond the point and just overloading an instrument with repeated hardware. Besides, C does not relate to E so why insist and put it on one neck?
But I must admit that 20-some years later I have changed my opinion SOMEWHAT.

When you "complicate" your C or B or Bb 6th, you get a lot of changes that "sit on top of each other". In other words, you created chords which roots are on pulled strings which were other degrees in the basic change... Now if those were 3rds and tuned JI they may be considerably flat or a tad sharp, and your new pull-combination chord becomes "mushy" (of bad tuning).

I have now come to consider that E9th can, with the help of few compensation pulls be tuned JI but a "complicated" (I used the word "complicated" like Swiss watch makers would, in the sense of "having added too many features") C, B or Bb6th needs to be tuned ET to take advantage of all possibly reachable pedal-lever combinations, specially if you get into upper structure chords, which have up to 7 DIFFERENT notes (almost no octave repeats)... these need to line up in TUNE... and JI will work against that goal.

I got one Excel Superb which had the tunable switch rest-bar lock.
For those not familiar with those newer Excel Superb guitars, the basic principle is that the bar your changer scissor fingers rest against, can be pulled by a lock lever to create a new rest "tuning" on which each scissor's "0"-position can be tuned individually.

So, one CAN tune E9th JI and if so desired C6th ET with that system.
Evidently the changes from one "tuning" become useless on the other "tuning". For that Mr. Fuji has created a change switch over for the RK cluster (they switch over and alter different cross shafts as one switches between tunings), it's pure genius and it WORKS perfectly each time!).

My "beef" with that still is an over-loaded steel and the fact that CMajor does musically not relate to EMajor and that I have lost interest (for now) in E9th (but that makes me a less than 1%'ter, so the later is meaningless).

I find E-tunings great because they relate to guitars.

SO. Your choice is INDIVIDUAL and maybe, the question should be, WHICH tuning is the one you are drawn to most?

- E9th mainly and just "some" 6th tuning (basic set-up BE played his famed "Steel Guitar Jazz" on in 1962 (it should keep you busy for the next 150 years)? Then maybe E9th/B6th Universal is for you.

- Jazz and Hardbop mainly, but wanting to play some E9th change harmonies? Maybe B6th/E9th or Bb6th/Eb9th is something worth considering?

- Do you have years, decades of D10 playing behind you or are dependent on tablature for C6th (most tab of either tunings in 10 strings but easy to adapt to), or like me you feel the need to have the two tunings tempered differently depending on the complications of your C6th?
Then MAYBE a switch-over S12 E9th/C6th is something for you?
It's a little lighter and certainly more compact than most modern D10's, allows to set tuning "temp" for either tuning. But it WILL be S12

Worth a try? After all, just like two already did, IF you don't like it, you can sell it to me, and I'll rip it's guts out and re-set it up C6th "super complicated" 6P & 8K (one LK cluster) with 3 front hung paddle V-levers. Smile

That's just my OPINION(s) and my thinking behind it... J-D. The Ripper.
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__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

The more I examine Johnny Cox' D-13 (12-string) set-up, the more convinced I am.

I wake up some days thinking: 'It looks possible for me to get all that I have now on my 8+9 Emmons D-10, but on a single 12-string, but what a lot of bother to go to just to get what I already have!!'

But I'm still enthusiastic about it. It's a new challenge. I like the D tuning - safe middle-ground between the old E and C necks, pitch-wise - and to be able to reach everything without switching back-and-forth (left leg to the middle) seems a real boon.

It's more of an intellectual exercise than anything else in my case. My 'road' days are behind me and this is the perfect time to tackle the difficulty of learning new grips. I don't have to be gig-ready any time soon (or ever again). Skipping that extra B string (5th string) will take some doing but that's okay.

I don't hear any noticeable tuning problems in the excellent video Johnny made. My set-up will differ slightly as I want to accommodate all changes I now have in the 12-string. I have a couple of brain-teasers to figure out, but I'm getting there.

(Or, I could just learn to play the guitar I already have... Smile

)
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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