My new Excel C6/E9 S12 !

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Hi guys, I couldn't find the original discussion from 8 months past but I just received my S12 C6/E9 9p/10kl from Mitsuo. Does anyone know where I can get some tips for tuning? I'm having issues keeping both tunings in tune. I'm sure it must be my own ignorance, since I've only had it for 12 hours. I sure am excited. -Pete Roush

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=312577&highlight=excel

Greg Cutshaw and Glenn DeMichelle are two guys here that have played this arrangement on Excel. Good Luck. Congrats on the new axe.

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

congrats Peter! Mitsuo works pretty fast, huh?
love to see your copedent sometime.
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster

Bryan Crowley · From: Crescent, Oklahoma

Hi Peter. Could you post some pics when you get a chance. Congratulations!

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

With the exception of the two lowest strings, my Excel switches accurately between both tunings. It does not switch between tunings in a way that makes it as accurate as having two separate stable 10 string necks. This to me is a minor annoyance but is more than offset by the advantages:

1) two added chromatic strings on C6
2) two added low strings on E9
3) You have bo the the original G high and newer D on top strings on C6
4) the Excel solution is more compact and much lighter than a D-10

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks guys. Greg, The extra strings 11 and 12 in E9 are so cool, like you say, just have to cheat them a little they won't quite tune. I don't need them really but it's just fun having them. I'm playing the bugs out of this thing, tuning the stops by ear and not the tuner and sounding better. It isn't tuner perfect yet, not sure if it will ever be. I'll tune one tuning perfectly, switch tunings and it's off when I come back, especially the Es, which is funny because they don't need to change pitch between tunings. I like my new change on CKLF (C6)check it out, I can use it in 4 chord forms already. Loving the extra high strings on C6! My RKL (E9) keeps letting go, also the LKV (E9) but not as often. RKR (E9) is so stiff I have to hold the guitar in place, but it is second pull on a half stop so it has to be that way, getting used to how feather light this thing is! Great natural tone, I have a Dekely and I'm used to playing with knobs at 12 o'clock. This sounds even better!

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

My two E9/C6 guitars seem to do the shift well and keep in tune.

There is no reason for the E9 tuning to be out when the lever is off.
None of the gear shift tuning screws should be anywhere close to touching the finger when the shifter is disengaged. Maybe check that first? They should be fully clear.

sometimes the low strings don't quite keep up, but it's like 2 cents.

Anyhow, any miss-tuning should be correctable.

I might suggest backing off all the nylon tuners and then tune her up and shift between the two - see how it reacts. With 9 and 10, I know that's a lot. But the gear shift mechanism is so simple, I can't see why it wouldn't be accurate. Especially the Es as they don't change.

That's quite a piece. Amazing guitar.

And the RKR moving the guitar, I think that's just something we have to accept on a 35 lb guitar.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Also, I forgot.
There are SO MANY rods and bell cranks in these guitars, especially yours.
They all are very close and the rods are stacked on to of each other.

Make sure that there is as little rubbing as possible, Sometimes the center slot in the bell crank is tight and it can rub/bind the other rods passing thru.

And make sure the pulls are straight, and that the bell cranks are in line and the rods pass thru straight.

Minor tweaking of the slot width, minor re-alignment of pulls, that kind of thing - will improve an issue like this.
Spend some time with it upside down and actuate all the pulls and just observe. It's not only fun, but you might see something. Focus on the areas that you think are problematic.

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

It is amazing, thank you. So you are saying to tune the E9, then the C6? There are so many little screws to adjust a lot of stuff. Until I understand the changer better I'm hesitant to tweak much. I tried to find YouTube info but didn't find anything this time. I did see some demos last Fall when I looked. Do you guys have knowledge of instructions or video for this?

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Peter, yeah. The E9 is the "open - unchanged" tuning.

Tune the open strings to ext E9. Then when you pull the lever, what is does is slide a little bar under the changer forward that actuates either the raise finger or the lower finger, touching the little tuning screws at the very end of the finger.

So be sure that these little tuning screws are not touching the fingers when in E9 mode. otherwise, it'll never work.

The same things apply to these as any D-10 all pull guitar - namely, you have to have a taste of slack for things to not get bound up.

Remember that the gear shift lever is like a pedal or lever (only it changes 10 out of 12 strings - raising and lowering)

So E9 should be straight forward. Nothing is engaged with the fingers unless a pedal or lever is pressed. All the same on any guitar.

Now shifting to C6 - the gear shift lever lowers a string (lets focus on one string). It does that by actuating the lower finger (now that finger is offset from it's neutral position). Now say you have a C6 pedal or lever lowering that same string again.

See how easy it would be to tune that specific nylon tuner in far enough, such that when you let off the C6 lever and go back to E9 the finger could be held up?

In other words, be sure that no nylon tuners are bound up, just like any other all pull.
The nylon tuners should never touch the finger unless a pedal or lever is pressed.

Make sure that in E9 and in C6 mode that you have no bound nylon tuners. They should all have at least some clearance between the nylon tuner and the finger.

There are no instructions or anything like that.

Any instructions for an all pull will be the same, except for the added complication that in C6, the fingers are not in their neutral position and you need to accommodate for that.

Let me say it another way. When you lower a string with the C6 lever, you will need additional travel to lower that string again - additional on top of whatever it takes to lower it normally, because you have pulled the finger away from the nylon when lowering it with the gear shifter. So to lower that string, you hav e to pull thru whatever length that is, and then pull the distance to lower the string. You see that you can't take up that slack, because then when you release the lever back to E9, you're now bound up, the finger cannot return to neutral..
Same as having an all pull guitar "over-tuned"

This is probably confusing. Let me know if you have any specific questions. I'm happy to help.

PS - I've never changed which holes the pull rods are in (changer or bell cranks) from the way Mitsuo sent it to me. That part should be good.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

I took a look at your Copedant.

If you raise a string with the gear shifter going to C6- and raise it again on a C6 pedal or lever then you can get over-tuned.
Same goes for lowering a string into C6 and then lowering it again with a C6 change
(E9 changes don't matter, cause you aren't gonna hit them while in E6 mode)

1 (F#)- lower in c6 mode(F) - no further lowers in C6 mode
2 (D#) - lower in C6 mode(D) - no further lowers in C6 mode
3 (G#) - lower in C6 mode(G) - no further lowers in C6 mode
4(E) - no change in C6 mode
5(B) - raise in C6 mode (C) - raising it again on P8 and RKR. - CHECK THIS ONE
6(G#) - raise in C6 mode (A)- raising it again on P5, P8 and CKR - CHECK THIS ONE
7(F#) - raise in C6 mode (G) - no further raises in C6 mode
8(E) - no change in C6 mode
9(D) - lower in C6 mode (C) - no further lowers in C6 mode
10(B) - lower in C6 mode (A) - lowering it again on CKLrear - CHECK THIS ONE
11(E) - raise in C6 mode (F) - raising it again on P6 - CHECK THIS ONE
12(B) - raise in C6 mode (C) - raising it again on P6 - CHECK THIS ONE

All this is moot if you ensure there are no nylons touching the fingers when in E9 mode - as when you throw the shifter, and finger will only move AWAY form the nylon, raise or lower.

I would also recommend turning the guitar over in it's case and SLOWLY actuating then releasing each change with the lever or pedal. Observe how each finger that moves returns to neutral. I've seen some hang up on return, either due to not having enough return spring tension dialed in, or I've seen a tiny burr on the edge of the finger catch and not let it slide back to neutral.

Remedy this with more spring tension, (only if it's a tension issue - this should be good from the factory) or cleaning up any burr that might be catching. Also a good time to be sure there is enough oil in between the cheeks of adjacent changer fingers.

Flip her over and take a looooong look. You'll see what I mean.

You can also use a small flat screw driver to push and move the lower finger off it's stop and slowly move it back. You can feel if there is some hesitation. If there is not a burr or other physical obstruction, you can slowly dial in some more return spring tension until the finger seats all the way back when releasing it - using your screwdriver.

Remember this though! Return spring tension needs to be enough to keep the lower finger back at that string's highest raised tension. That can be in E9 mode, C6 mode, or in either one with a pedal or lever engaged.

If the spring tension is not sufficient, you'll step on a raise, which doesn't come up to pitch because the return spring is letting the lower pull off the stop, then you might be tempted to just tune it up more. Now you've over-tuned the string - the finger cannot return to neutral because the nylon tuner is preventing it.

Probably more confused now.

These things work great, just don't overtune it and keep in mind that things are different when the C6 lever is engaged.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I got a used 24.25" scale one with that mechanism.
I played it as E9th/C6th for a week and then converted it to C6th with 6P & 8K (you can check her out on the Builders-Forum under the Vertical Front Hung Paddle Levers).

The system on mine worked very well and that guitar also shifted the function on both RK's. A pretty amazing machine which hat 9 pedals and 9 levers.

The reason I converted it only, had nothing to do with it's operation, just my preference for a complex Jazz tuning, and that guitar came with all the parts for me to do it.

The system PULLS UP from E9th to C6th. The resting bar of the scissors pulls off and adjust the new open tuning accordingly. Each scissor and be precision tuned by screws to raise or lower to the new tuning.
While I find that keeping E and C which DON'T relate to each other (as E9th to B6th will), the advantage is, that one could tune E9th JI and C6th JI or ET or MT. Which is an amazing offering.

The only issue I found was that the switched position stopped at the pulling mechanism (actuated by the shift lever) instead of resting solidly against a secondary rest-stop on the endplate or something connected to the changer. I felt that the sound quality of the secondary tuning was affected by that.

The OP's guitar (which I understand is new?) seems from the little I can see, to have some different part and that over-the-pull-rods cross shaft, which I do NOT know if it is related at all to the tuning shifter mechanism.
Mr. Fuji seems to constantly update his own creations, and the more power to him for that. So, your shifter mechanism may be different than the one on my guitar was, which I understand is a couple of years older.

In any effect, I had no issues with the tuning. The very short keyless tuner also helps with tuning stability with all these changes.

Yet, with all the questions we get here on this forum with much "simpler" guitars which often root back to player mis-adjustments like typical over-tuning... I man, imagine the complications over-tuning could generate on a guitar which has two tuning resting positions... I could see how some run into issues and just go worse and worse.

I would suggest to take a big breath and step back and first check:
- Proper lubing.
- that ALL RETURN-springs are tight enough to pull the lower scissors FIRMLY against their resting positions in both tuning (turn the guitar over on a work bench like b0b sells here on the Forum (the are GREAT) or in the guitar's case and with a flat scree driver, push off each string's lower scissor and let it snap back. They should ALL snap back RESOLUTELY with a "clack" sound! If they don't your tuning will be in deep you know what.
- enough slack on ALL changes on the base tuning (resting against the end-plate) first and the same again with the shift engaged.
- making sure that the tuning screws of the shift rest bar do NOT affect the original resting of the scissors.
- making sure that in the shifted position all pitch-changed scissors are tuned by the pull-bar tuning screws only.

IF you feel overwhelmed or unsure of how the mechanism works, DO yourself the favor to seek help from a KNOWN steel guitar technician who's worked on that kind of guitars... Jim Palenscar comes to mind.
I would love to offer hands-on help, but I am out of the Country for most of the rest of the this year.

And If you are unhappy with her and would want to sell it, I would be interested.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Great info from JD.

I'd also check that the fingers return if you let them back slowly. Like you were easing off a pedal.

A full snap-back can mask a hang-up that would occur if the finger is returned slowly.

You'll feel it. I wish I was closer, I'd come on over!

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks for all your advice guys. I guess I expected this guitar to be ready to play. (See picture), this 80mm rod fell out on the floor after a couple of days. It may have had something to do with C6 stability. Aside from that it seems like most of my issues have been the tensioner adjustment for the C6 bar. Also after adjusting that it takes a while for the C6 tuning to settle. C6 is playable now with occasional adjustments. I still would like to know where this rod came from though. I have a couple of half stops (E9 strings 1/7, and C6 strings 6/10) I am doing without for the time being and thinking this rod may be related.

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Yep. Found the rod. There is another one just like it on the opposite side pulling the C6 finger out. That will definitely affect the stability. No wonder it is out of whack. I'll put it in later. I think Mitsuo might be delegating some of this work. This might be the last bug I need to fix. Hope so.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks JD. I for sure would have gone one size up on the set screws, but they should all be OK since these axes have such a feather lite touch anyway. You guys' time and knowledge is valuable. I realllllyy appreciate everyone's eagerness to help.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

If that's one side of the C6 engage bar then you've found why the tuning is unstable.

If you need any photos of my guitar that might help you get that back in there, just let me know.

but I believe that there's one on each side, so it should mirror the one that stayed on.

Expect to have to retune the E9/C6 mechanism and probably the rest of it!

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Hey does anyone know where I might find some extra stop collars? On both my steel guitars they measure 6.5mm or .22 inches in diameter X 10mm or .394 inches in length.

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Just getting everything working OK but suddenly my volume control is shorting out and buzzing, even through my Hilton Volume Pedal. I have to play with the bypass switch now, that's OK I never had volume and tone knobs before, but I think this guitar was built on a Monday (or Friday). Wishing the tech shop good luck getting to this knob to fix it whenever I can get it to them. I am still very pleased overall with the extended ability of this setup!

Peter Roush · From: Ohio, USA

Just getting everything working OK but suddenly my volume control is shorting out and buzzing, even through my Hilton Volume Pedal. I have to play with the bypass switch now, that's OK I never had volume and tone knobs before, but I think this guitar was built on a Monday (or Friday). Wishing the tech shop good luck getting to this knob to fix it whenever I can get it to them. I am still very pleased overall with the extended ability of this setup! Very Happy

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