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Topic: Emmons bolt-on questions - more pics added |
Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 7:41 am |
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I was fortunate to pick up what looks to be an early bolt-on at the Indy guitar show last weekend. Its not a big thing but there’s this little ID plate right next to the selector/tone control plate. I’m not super-knowledgeable about early Emmons by any stretch but I’ve never seen a similar one. I feel fairly certain it wasn’t added later.
Last edited by Eric Philippsen on 14 Oct 2021 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 7:46 am
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Funny - never seen that before. I have two bolt ons and neither has it. Seems kind of redundant since the front says Emmons and it's obviously a D10...
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2021 9:48 am
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I have never seen one either. Perhaps it is a boo boo plate covering a mistake. If it is a pre-November 1965 guitar, it was made without jigs, so mistakes could happen. Perhaps is is covering a hole drilled too deep during a restoration of added something or another? What is on the other side?
What makes you think it is an early Bolt-on?
How wide is the cabinet and how long are the pedal cranks?
What do the hooks on the pedal rods look like?
Do the pedals have humps allowing straight retainer clips, or are the pedal shafts straight so the retainer clip is dog legged?
Does it have a 100k pot?
Can you see-through cutouts what color the underside of the mica is?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Oct 2021 11:08 am
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What is under the plate?
Edited to add: The number font is different on the little plate than it is on the serial number stamping on the guitar's end plate, meaning that a different set of stamps were used. (Stamped at a different time or by a different person). Though notable, that fact may or may not be significant.
Last edited by Donny Hinson on 1 Nov 2021 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 13 Oct 2021 2:40 pm
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I bought a terrific D10 Emmons Bolton from Eric. Great guy, if he is ever offering a guitar for sale, buy it.
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I need an Emmons! |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 13 Oct 2021 5:38 pm
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I have a similar type plate on my Infinity, because I asked Frank to retrofit the neck selector switch between the necks after he assembled the guitar. The move caused a small boo-boo which Frank added a plate to cover. The message on the plate was "E9 - C6" 
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2021 11:01 am
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Sorry about this late reply. Any help dating this is appreciated.
- I pulled the little “Emmons D-10†plate and, no, there’s nothing under it. No hole or ding.
- The steel’s serial number is 2412, sitting all by itself on the changer’s underside on the C6th side. But, interestingly, there’s a lone “D†stamped all by itself on the E9th side.
- It has a Clarostat pot but I can’t, for the life of me, after pulling the control plate, see it’s value, 100K or otherwise. Nothing on the steel or plate has ever been changed.
- The front body Emmons decal is large.
- The body measures 10 3/8W x 33L
- I’ve never seen these type of connectors on Emmons rods before but there’s a lot I don’t know. The hook-ends are different, too.
-The steel has one (long) KL, lowering both 2 & 8.
- There are 12 extra bellcranks.
- White case, red velour interior. 2 latches + slide latch. Brown plastic handle.
- Sorry about the orientation of some of the pics. I’m kind of not tech savvy.
- By the condition of the steel and it’s case my best guess is that this saw little playing outside the house.
Last edited by Eric Philippsen on 17 Oct 2021 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2021 11:45 am
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I used to have Bolt-On invoice number 2283. It had a narrower cabinet than yours -- a Wraparound cabinet. It was a 1965 and could have first been a Wraparound that was changed to a Bolt-on at the Factory, or it could have been an updated trade-in. There was evidence of the original Wraparound pillar mounting underneath. Yours could well be a 1965 as well. By the way, 2283 is stamped at the keyhead end and there is a "B" stamped at the changer end. It is likely item or guitar "B" on the invoice. That is my guess, but just a guess.
The most telling feature is the pedal rod hooks. Those are the first style and typically found on a Wraparound. Just looking at them, you can tell why they changed the style to the center less ground stepped down hook. How long do you think it took to shape each of those hooks? Brutal.Here are a bunch of the pedal rod hooks from some of my Wraparounds. I was trying to determine how they changed over time. I don't know why the photo does not load all the way, but you get the idea, there are just a lot more pedal rods that look the same.
I cannot tell if you have the "short pedal cranks" in the second style used by Emmons starting in April 1964 with the second Emmons, which is numbered 464 001, but it is actually the second to leave the Factory. Here are the short pedal cranks found on my old 2283. Compare to yours. The angle will be steeper and the leverage worse.
I am sure you have the old 100k pot. I even found one on a 1969 that was #1280D or something like that.
Do you have the light tannish case that Herb Steiner calls "something pink?" I cannot tell from the pictures.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 14 Oct 2021 12:06 pm
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Here's the original case for my Dec '64 wraparound Chris was referring to in the above post. It's slightly "pinker" than the photo shows, though it's definitely beige in color.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2021 12:54 pm
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Here’s a couple of pics of the pedal cranks and the case. The case isn’t pure white, sort of a light creme color with red velour interior. Although it’s middle slide hasp doesn’t work it’s not beat up or bad.
I guess the best thing about finding this was that it came with an early 70’s black D10 p/p, too. The dealer had 2 steels and sold them as a package deal to me.
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2021 3:56 pm
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Are those straight shafted pedals with the dog leg retainer. If so, those are likely the second or third pedal style. The first three styles had straight shafts. No one ever catches that detail when making a fake Wraparound. The first style looks like the second, but is only drilled for a skinnier axle, which I have only seen on one Emmons.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 5:24 am
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Very interesting thread! Nice find on that guitar Eric!
Chris, I have #2309, a redbelly bolt-on. The body width is 10 1/4", the same as my '65 wraparound. (My other two "D"-series bolt-ons have 10 3/8"- wide cabinets). It has the straight pedal rod retainers (with the "pedal humps") and the"carburetor-linkage"-style pedal rod connectors. I believe the pedal rods themselves are not original. They have the non-ground hooks, and are the "two-piece" style hooks found on later PP's. The pedal rod cranks appear to be the longer ones. One thing I know, the pedal action is terrific.
So given this would you think mine is a '65 that was built not long after #2283?
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Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Jack Stanton
From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 6:15 am
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| May be the coolest thread ever... |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 6:30 am
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| Jack Stanton wrote: |
| May be the coolest thread ever... |
Right Jack? I have bookmarked this one... 
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Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 10:06 am
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Very informative thread. Learning a lot. Thanks to all that made a post with info. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 11:12 am
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| Tommy Detamore wrote: |
Very interesting thread! Nice find on that guitar Eric!
Chris, I have #2309, a redbelly bolt-on. The body width is 10 1/4", the same as my '65 wraparound. (My other two "D"-series bolt-ons have 10 3/8"- wide cabinets). It has the straight pedal rod retainers (with the "pedal humps") and the"carburetor-linkage"-style pedal rod connectors. I believe the pedal rods themselves are not original. They have the non-ground hooks, and are the "two-piece" style hooks found on later PP's. The pedal rod cranks appear to be the longer ones. One thing I know, the pedal action is terrific.
So given this would you think mine is a '65 that was built not long after #2283? |
Yes, I would say 1965, based upon the Wraparound cabinet width. Do you have flocking under the endplate tabs, or is it just dark stained wood? Yes, you have the newer pedals and your pedal rods may be original. Emmons may have been dedicating the more complicated hook bend rods for the "student"model S10 Wraparounds that were being made during the Bolt-On era. Two of my S10 Wraparounds came from Herb Steiner with the early rods.
By the way, the rod hooks you describe with your red belly are not two piece. The smaller diameter hook is centerless ground, heated and bent, then polished. A centerless grinder can do the diameter reduction in a flash. It is a slower process using a Dumore Grinder mounted on the tool post of a lathe. This hook design is bad because the right angle shoulder is a point subject to breakage if the rod is dropped on a concrete floor, for example.. It is odd because a machinist would know not to create such a right angle transition where it is not necessary. That is a tell that a quick centerless grinder was used.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 11:27 am
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Eric and Tommy
Please check to see if you have hollow necks. See if you can run a fat guitar string past the pickup up to the nut.
Alternatively, if you can see "ghosts" of the threads of some of the neck mounting screws, that means the necks have no ribs and the easier locations for the mounting screws. That is an identifier for Pre-Jig and Post Jig guitars. Transfer screws vs jigs.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2021 12:03 pm
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Someone asked me what I was writing about when I was referring to "straight shaft pedals" or "no hump with dog leg retainer clip." Here is a photo to explain. The middle pedals are the old style Emmons pedal with the built-up area in the center of the tube. These were made first for a skinnier pedal rack axle, then a "normal" axle diameter. The third style Emmons pedal is on the right -- still straight shaft. The pedals on the left show what is meant by the "hump with straight retainer clip." Those look like shorter narrow cast pedals from around 1973 or 1974. I cannot remember, it has been fifteen years since I took that photo.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2021 8:13 am
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I’ve got a bolt on that is 10 1/4†wide - I’ve always wondered if it’s a wrap body - it’s also considerably tougher in its finished parts, which makes me think it is pre-jig. Curious how I might know for sure. If it is a wrap body, does that mean it’s a 65? It is an invoice number guitar with the rare thick white middle pick ups.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2021 9:28 am
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Abe, does your guitar cabinet spread out the full width to the outside of the endplates?
The pickups are not 1965, but they could have been changed. Your guitar may have been a factory update or a redone trade-in on an old cabinet. What is the invoice number?
Do you have hollow necks? That is the indicator for a Pre-Jig guitar.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2021 9:38 am
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Chris - I’m not sure what you mean by the cabinet spreading out…? The invoice number is 2767. I haven’t had the necks off in a long time, can’t recall if they’re hollow or not, but look how wavy the cut is on the changer hole of the necks!
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2021 9:48 am
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Abe, you don't need to remove the necks. Take a wound guitar string and sneak it past the pickup through the cutout and see if you can push the string all the way to the nut.
By cabinet being spread out, are the two cabinet halves pushing out against the outside table of the endplates, or are they tight to the inside tabs or somewhere in the middle?
The 1965 Bolt-ons I have seen still have the slotted pickup mounting screws.
Maybe it is the lighting, but the tail end of the changer surround looks like it was shaped by a file rather than a milling machine?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2021 11:15 am
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Sorry about this late reply.
As suggested, to determine if the neck(s) were hollow, I tried feeding, at several places, a string in the narrow gap between a pickup and it’s nearby neck cutout edge. The string was stopped almost immediately. I assume that means the neck is solid, of course. So, are the hollow necks on the early wraps?
Here’s a pic of the pedals that the steel has.
Last edited by Eric Philippsen on 28 Oct 2021 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2021 11:33 am
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Ha!
In looking closely at the bolt-on’s undercarriage I see there IS a tiny screwhole under the small, topside “Emmons D-10†metal plate (See original post). That hole serves as one of the two mounting holes for that plate’s mounting screws. In other words, the plate does seem to be a “boo-boo†cover. The unanswerable question, then, is whether it’s “factory†or not. My best guess, though, is it’s factory because the steel just hasn’t been messed with, modded, or altered in any way. It is in remarkable condition for a 56-year old Emmons. Yes, the peeling paint on the pedals might make one think it has seen a hard life but perhaps that might be due to poor adhesion between the two.
Last edited by Eric Philippsen on 28 Oct 2021 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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