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Topic: Push pull question |
Dan Murphy
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2022 7:51 am |
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Hi guys, I haven't had an Emmons Push pull. Can these guitars be set up for modern pulls like 1st and 2nd string raises?.How limited are these guitars compared to LL2,3?  |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 6 Mar 2022 9:58 am
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The only real limitation is the inability to do true splits. Other than that, you can have all the same changes as any other guitar. A push-pull is basically just a pull-release mechanism with the neutral/lowering stops integrated in the changer itself. Raises are always dominant, so adding a lower has no effect. There are some work-arounds to simulate splits, but to push-pull afficianados the raise dominant behavior is a feature, not a limitation. The pedal feel is different than an all-pull guitar like a LeGrande, not in a bad way, just different.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2022 11:08 am
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| For a loaded guitar with many changes like a universal, you'll be tuning collars under the guitar rather than at the end plate for those strings that need multiple raises or lowers. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2022 11:09 am
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Dan, it is interesting that you ask about the first string E9 raise. On early Emmons guitars, raising string one on the E9 neck was not anticipated.
Pursuing the goal to make the cabinet as compact as possible, the early cabinets were narrower and the pedal stop bar was in the way placing a bellcrank to have a straight pull the first string raise finger.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Patrick Timmins
From:
Seattle
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Posted 6 Mar 2022 2:17 pm
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I have 2 Emmons in my studio right now.
Both pull the D# and F# and they each do it different ways.
I may get some flack for this; I also have a tunable split on my B (vert lever) with pedal A engaged. People say tunable splits are not possible on push pulls..... They are, it's just not easy.
The 76 gets rid of the lowering spring and uses the lowering finger to raise the F# to G# and the D# just uses the lowest hole on the raise finger.
The 75, is kind of an experiment rig. I used a sho-bud bell crank and made a custom 2 sided brass puller and it works great using the normal raise fingers.
I don't really use my vert knee by itself, so I turned it into a tunable split with the A pedal on the B (5th) string. I get a lot more use out of it that way. Kelcey O'Neil had a video showing the tunable split he did for a customer on another push pull, but I think it was for the 6th string. I didn't come up with it. I credit Kelcey.
It also uses a Sho-Bud bell crank on the A pedal The long throw hole does the normal raise and there is a second rod with a fine tuner to act as a lowering stop just like using two rods for a tunable split on an all pull. When the vert lever is pushed, the lowering rod goes through the hole on the lowering finger and pushes directly against the raise finger until the second rod stops the travel. You do have to add a decent amount of spring to the A pedal raise to allow for the lowering travel.
You don't have the ease of setup with a push pull, but tunable splits are possible (within reason), and man, they sure do sound good. I'm looking forward to see how Kelcey is implementing the tunable splits on his new Emmons guitars!
_________________
Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars! |
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Dan Murphy
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2022 6:28 pm
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Thanks for the info.  |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 8 Mar 2022 7:52 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| The only real limitation is the inability to do true splits. Other than that, you can have all the same changes as any other guitar. A push-pull is basically just a pull-release mechanism with the neutral/lowering stops integrated in the changer itself. Raises are always dominant, so adding a lower has no effect. There are some work-arounds to simulate splits, but to push-pull afficianados the raise dominant behavior is a feature, not a limitation. The pedal feel is different than an all-pull guitar like a LeGrande, not in a bad way, just different. |
Can describe a few situations where raise dominant is a feature? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2022 12:19 am
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| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| Can describe a few situations where raise dominant is a feature? |
The most obvious one is using B+C with E strings lowered. The 4th string is raised to F# (the lower has no effect), creating a big, beautiful, thumb-sweep-able 9th chord.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 9 Mar 2022 3:33 am
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Raising strings 1 & 2 can be done on a push pull. String 1 needs tuning to G# by manually pulling the raise changer underneath first, and then tune the open string using the adjusting screw through the end plate. I use an extra long bell crank which has 2 pullers - the longer one for raising string 1 and the shorter one for raising string 2. I put the hook wire in the bottom raise hole of the changer for string 1. I know that others on this forum don't bother with a longer bell crank and get the raise up to G# with an ordinary length one.
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 9 Mar 2022 9:28 am
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| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| Can describe a few situations where raise dominant is a feature? |
There are certainly situations where the raise dominance provides a specific musical effect, such as the long intervals on strings 4 or 5 like b0b described, etc., but in the broader sense it's more about your expectation of that behavior in your playing, and how you take advantage of it to produce the music you're after. From this perspective, the "situation" is any time you sit down to play.
| Ken Byng wrote: |
| ...I use an extra long bell crank which has 2 pullers - the longer one for raising string 1 and the shorter one for raising string 2. I put the hook wire in the bottom raise hole of the changer for string 1. I know that others on this forum don't bother with a longer bell crank and get the raise up to G# with an ordinary length one. |
Yes, I use Sho-Bud 2-hole bell cranks and swivels on my PPs for the string 1-2 raises, it reduces the necessary throw on the lever quite a bit. I drilled and tapped new set screw holes on them so they align properly with the flat on the Emmons cross shaft.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2022 10:29 am PP Raise Dominant Feature
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| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| Can describe a few situations where raise dominant is a feature? |
On my LKV I lower string 5 to Bb and raise string 7 to G.
Engaging the lever with the A and B pedals down provides a dominant 7th chord.
I often use grip 6, 7 and 9 with the B pedal, which provides four chord (with the 9th string providing the root). If you then raise string 7 to G with the LKV, you get a Sus 4th (with both A and B pedals down).
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Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 10 Mar 2022 10:31 pm
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Very interesting ideas for use of the raise dominant "feature".
Thanks b0b and Lynn.
Might find its way into my U12P/P coped refit when I decide what I want and have the guts to tackle it! |
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