| Author |
Topic: Behind the bar bends - how long did it take you to master? |
David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 24 May 2021 4:37 pm |
|
I've been working on some behind the bar bends on a couple of arrangements. I have to say this maneuver has me feeling EXTREMELY uncoordinated. I have seen some improvement over time, but wow these are not easy for me.
Anyone else experience a slow learning curve in the process of mastering behind the bar bends?
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
|
|
 |
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 24 May 2021 6:51 pm
|
|
the trick is to have something that your thumb can rest on and you can pull against. get a guitar with a nicely raised fretboard. you just hold the bar with index middle...then reach over with the thumb and anchor and then pull with your index.
watch some of the old school guys pull the heck out of string one!
check out about one minute into this video.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YkKJaCmQ-c
Last edited by Bill Hatcher on 24 May 2021 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Bill Sinclair
From:
Waynesboro, PA, USA
|
Posted 24 May 2021 7:02 pm
|
|
They're tricky, for sure. When I first started doing string pulls, it took a while to build up a callous on the part of my ring finger doing the pull. It also took a while to build up the strength to do whole step pulls. If I can't hear myself well enough when playing live, I tend to pull sharp of the target pitch, in which case I'm better off doing a slide or slant rather than a string pull. String gauges and even what fret you're on make a difference in how much force is required, so it's not just up to muscle memory. Some people use their middle finger but that makes the bar too unstable for me. Steve Cunningham uses his pinky but I just don't have that much strength in my little finger. This video of his was a big inspiration for me to work on incorporating string pulls into my playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtsJ773XpAo |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 24 May 2021 7:07 pm
|
|
I’ve only mastered it in the way that supports what I need from it, which is to raise the pitch but without actually hearing the bend. To effectively master the actual bending sound, you really have to have your string gauges perfect, and like Bill Hatcher said find a suitable anchor point so that you can do it consistently and easily.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 25 May 2021 1:41 am
|
|
In case its helpful, here's some info from my Exploring C6th book. I don't recall that it took me much time to learn this technique but it did take time for my fingers not to hurt every time I did it!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 25 May 2021 2:27 am
|
|
Thanks guys! This really helps! I never tried anchoring my thumb. Anchoring the thumb really helps. I'm also experimenting with resting the palm of my hand against the neck and that helps to (and allows me to keep my thumb on the tone bar).
Previously I was not doing any anchoring - but just holding onto the tone bar and attempting the bends.
I still have some woodshedding to do before I sound like I know what I'm doing, but great progress has occurred from the input on this thread.
What a great forum this is!
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 25 May 2021 3:13 am
|
|
While I do not share (at least fully) his sentiment, I thought this was pretty interesting. The late Big John Bechtel’s contrary opinion on string pulls, found in the last post that he made on the forum:
“Just my opinion and it isn't meant to insult anyone! However, please don't even dream of doing that on any steel of mine! One good player tried that on my �49 Fender T-8 Custom� and that was the end of his playing, in no time flat! If you want to sound like a PSG, then go buy your own artical! Regardless of how good or bad it sounds, Not on any of my instruments! Sorry if I offended any one, but; it's set in stone with me and I've wanted to tell it for a long, long time! Carry on!†|
|
|
|
Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
|
Posted 25 May 2021 4:50 am
|
|
Interesting...I wonder why he objected so strongly to it?
I've never really worked at it...it's a bit of a "country" sound which I don't play a lot of. But I imagine it is a lot like slant technique, or on sitar, meend (string pulling/bends)...you're going to sound terrible and out of tune for a long time when you start but you've got to keep at it! 
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 25 May 2021 5:05 am
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
While I do not share (at least fully) his sentiment, I thought this was pretty interesting. The late Big John Bechtel’s contrary opinion on string pulls, found in the last post that he made on the forum:
“Just my opinion and it isn't meant to insult anyone! However, please don't even dream of doing that on any steel of mine! One good player tried that on my �49 Fender T-8 Custom� and that was the end of his playing, in no time flat! If you want to sound like a PSG, then go buy your own artical! Regardless of how good or bad it sounds, Not on any of my instruments! Sorry if I offended any one, but; it's set in stone with me and I've wanted to tell it for a long, long time! Carry on!†|
very strange to have such an aversion. the behind the bar pull is very useful not only for what he thought were the "dreaded" country sounds, but also for making a chord that would be impossible to play without pulling a note up. ANY technique you can have in your arsenal that will help you play should never be avoided. pull away! |
|
|
|
Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
|
Posted 25 May 2021 7:00 am
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
While I do not share (at least fully) his sentiment, I thought this was pretty interesting. The late Big John Bechtel’s contrary opinion on string pulls, found in the last post that he made on the forum:
“Just my opinion and it isn't meant to insult anyone! However, please don't even dream of doing that on any steel of mine! One good player tried that on my �49 Fender T-8 Custom� and that was the end of his playing, in no time flat! If you want to sound like a PSG, then go buy your own artical! Regardless of how good or bad it sounds, Not on any of my instruments! Sorry if I offended any one, but; it's set in stone with me and I've wanted to tell it for a long, long time! Carry on!†|
Wow - I guess the player should have checked his techniques with Big John before playing his instrument. Don't want to risk attempting a banned reverse slant or split bar. I may be wrong but don't behind the bar pulls pre-date pedal steel? |
|
|
|
David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 25 May 2021 7:16 am
|
|
| Tim Whitlock wrote: |
Wow - I guess the player should have checked his techniques with Big John before playing his instrument. Don't want to risk attempting a banned reverse slant or split bar. I may be wrong but don't behind the bar pulls pre-date pedal steel? |
Well, now that I think about it, I wouldn't want my daughter to marry a man who used behind the bar pulls. 
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 25 May 2021 7:50 am
|
|
| David DeLoach wrote: |
| Well, now that I think about it, I wouldn't want my daughter to marry a man who used behind the bar pulls. |
Yeah, he could break her G string! |
|
|
|
Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
|
Posted 25 May 2021 7:38 pm
|
|
I don't remember half step bends being extremely hard, just have to practice a lot, different places on the fretboard, but I haven't figured out how to do whole step bends without that string going out of tune.
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
|
|
|
Steve Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, GA
|
Posted 25 May 2021 8:25 pm
|
|
Try using the lower part of your palm against the side of the neck for extra strength. Think of the role of the fretting hand thumb for guitarists...to allow them to "squeeze", as opposed to all of the force having to come from the fingers.
Also, make sure whichever finger you're using is curling slightly under the string, pulling it up into the bar. A common mistake is to pull the string straight back and lose contact with the bar.
Stick with it David, and you'll find the technique that works best for you.
_________________
Zoom/Skype/Facetime lessons available http://www.atlanta-guitar-lessons.com
YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/user/SingingStringsMusic?feature=mhee |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 26 May 2021 4:56 am
|
|
Behind the bar bending is a legitimate technique and generally, doesn't sound exactly like a pedal steel. You can use the technique to silently pre-bend, as Mike does, to achieve a particular chord voicing but for me, it really gets interesting where - like pedal steel - you hear the bend or pre-bend and audibly release notes while sustaining other notes. Here's an example of what I mean.
https://soundcloud.com/aev/bending-example
In bars 1-3, you're audibly bending the 3rd string behind the bar up a full step then releasing it. In bar 4, you bend the 3rd string up one whole step - hold the bend in place, play the 2nd string, and then release the bend. In bar 5 and 6, you once again bend and release the 3rd string. The whole thing a major 7th lick that descends in two whole and one half step. Lastly, having the right string gauges and an unwound third string are essential to pulling off whole-step bends. They get easier as you go farther from the nut.
For my money, with all due respect to Jerry Byrd, Billy Robinson is the absolute master of bar manipulation coupled with behind-the-bar bending. FYI, Byrd told me directly that he never, ever bent strings behind the bar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbyMAnhFyl8
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Jouni Karvonen
From:
Helsinki, Finland
|
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 26 May 2021 12:03 pm
|
|
he has his thumb anchored for sure!
it would be easy to take a lap guitar and screw on a small piece of aluminum angle on the bass side of the body...if there was room....you wouldnt have to reach so far over to anchor the thumb for bending. next time you see a piece of angle or a piece of wood glued to the side of a neck...you know where that idea came from.  |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2021 12:57 pm
|
|
| Steve Cunningham wrote: |
Try using the lower part of your palm against the side of the neck for extra strength. Think of the role of the fretting hand thumb for guitarists...to allow them to "squeeze", as opposed to all of the force having to come from the fingers.
Also, make sure whichever finger you're using is curling slightly under the string, pulling it up into the bar. A common mistake is to pull the string straight back and lose contact with the bar.
Stick with it David, and you'll find the technique that works best for you. |
Steve, it is interesting comparing your palm-anchoring technique to Raphael McGregor’s thumb-anchor. Yours would seem to allow for more bar control, but might it be dependent on a narrower (6-string) neck? Also, are pulling with your pinky finger? I tried that, it’s not possible for me.
Bill Hatcher, I would sure like to have a look at your string pull technique. Like the others mentioned here, it is seamless in your amazing music, but it must be a little different on a 12-string. |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 26 May 2021 2:45 pm
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
uote=
Bill Hatcher, I would sure like to have a look at your string pull technique. Like the others mentioned here, it is seamless in your amazing music, but it must be a little different on a 12-string. |
Fred. It’s nothing out of the ordinary. Every guitar is made differently. You have to just find a place to anchor. Another thing...I use the shubb pearse sp1 bar. There is a cut in the sides and the top. You can control the sp1 almost with one finger pressing downward if you need to.
I am well under way making a 6 string guitar with four levers on it, so I will be able to both pull behind the bar and also raise three strings and lower one at the bridge. I am using some hip shot stuff to raise and I am making the lower myself. |
|
|
|
Jeffery Mercer
From:
Born in Portsmouth Oh. Dec. 10th 1954 Reside in City of Mentor, in Northeast Oh.
|
Posted 28 May 2021 6:05 am Re: Behind the bar bends - how long did it take you to...
|
|
| David DeLoach wrote: |
I've been working on some behind the bar bends on a couple of arrangements. I have to say this maneuver has me feeling EXTREMELY uncoordinated. I have seen some improvement over time, but wow these are not easy for me.
Anyone else experience a slow learning curve in the process of mastering behind the bar bends? |
Actually the trick to this whole String bending technique on Lap Steel is To pull the string Upward to your ToneBar, not evenly, but slightly upward…makes it 20X’s easier!
Try it you’ll see!
_________________
Jeffery S Mercer |
|
|
|
Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
|
Posted 29 May 2021 8:04 pm
|
|
| I've got no philosophical position on that but have never been able to get it together to the point I would have to for it to be second nature. You have to sort of set up for that maneuver and it always felt a little contrived and like I was giving up a little control of the bar while executing the string pull. I've also tried palm levers but they just get in the way of my right hand technique and don't add much to the intervals I already have. And since I also play pedals, I've never craved that sound on a non-pedal instrument. It's a different animal. I just play an 8 string A13th tuning with a long bar, strive to get in and out of slants smoothly and enjoy the tone of a horseshoe pickup. It's just as musical to me and a more pure way to play. |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
|
|
|
James Inkster
From:
Ukee, BC
|
Posted 8 Jun 2021 10:42 am
|
|
Somewhat related, playing with 8-string high-g C6 (ACEGaceg), what strings would you target for those 'pedal'-sounding bends?
I find I tend to raise the E's up to F, and occasionally the G's to A (tho that's hard on string 1...)
Am I missing something cool? |
|
|
|
Robert B Murphy
From:
Mountain View, Arkansas, USA
|
Posted 16 Feb 2022 7:38 pm
|
|
I use it on the dobro and lap guitar in gbdgbd tuning to mimic the I-IV I-IV pedal steel fill. Mostly I do it on the B string in that I-IV lick and pick then bend up a half step and pick and relax it. I also sometimes do it on the high d up a half step to make a passing augmented on the way up to the chord a fourth above. Sometimes I'll bend the g string up a half step to make the dominant seventh of the chord three frets below but bending a .026 string any where is mind-over-matter. I don't do it often or long. I don't anchor anything, I guess I just pull back with my arm but I don't even think about it anymore. That augmented bend mentioned really sounds good with the harmonic. My ring finger doesn't have a noticable callus but even so I have to play dobro for hours for it to get sore.
_________________
Bob, small o. |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 17 Feb 2022 1:30 am
|
|
This thread is too funny.
I tried it for about a year here was my take:
Pros:
If you have less strings it allows you to do some chords that you would never be able to play
If you master it like STACY PHILLIPS Dobro player you can do it at speed
Your Steel can imitate a lot of pedal steel sounds
It absolutely is a valid ability look at Billy Robinson who did this masterfully (granted slowly as he used a bullet bar)
Stacy Phillips has a dedicated thin easily digestible book which demonstrates this technique on a master level at speed. Called "DOBRO CASE CHORD BOOK"
https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/stacy-phillips/dobro-case-chord-book/9780825611247?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6sy2x7WG9gIVS7DtCh3tpA-vEAQYBSABEgIpHvD_BwE
Cons:
It removes the smooth glissando slide feel that gives lap steel its flowing sounds
You NEED to USE a Dobro style bar if you want to master at speed
Your approach to the instrument and sound will sound like a blend of guitaresque style chords with a few pedal steel imitations
After a year of doing it your finger muscles will strengthen but be prepared for cramps, sprains if you don't warm up your bending fingers for at least 20min. If you've ever experienced a calf cramp it feels like that in your fingers. That's how much I was practicing it. DAILY.
Eventually:
I realised that with a more flexible tuning most chord voicings are available in Triads if not you can either use a substitute chord or play a Dyad. Then you don't lose the lap steel slide sound from one chord to another.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
