Hysteresis / Universal set ups

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

I had an experiment going for a while that was a 10 string B6, and the major thirds levered up a semitone on the right ( D# to E ) to do E9 style phrasing. For a while it was A6/D9, down a whole tone, with some slight changes, but the same principle. It was a great, simple set up, but those maj3rds would always return sharp. Those strings also lowered a halftone and that would 'reset' them. (Having the lower and raise was prob also part of the reason the strings lacked tuning stability). It was sort of a boiled down Bb6 type set up and I had no F lever or C pedal.
I've thought about doing this again maybe w/ a 12 string, but those D#s returning sharp was a deal breaker...
In terms of the more common E9/B6 tunings it seems that 99% use the E9 as a starting point, largely because E9 is more familiar I'm sure, but I'd guess it also relates to tuning stability, especially if F lever and C pedal are introduced...?
I have heard about players who tried doing the B6 open starting point, who have ultimately arrived at the E tuning, levering to B6, because of tuning issues.
Any thoughts on the issue appreciated.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Most hysteresis problems can be traced to the keyhead. If the strings pull at an angle, or the rollers do not move freely under load, there will be some hysteresis. But note that the degree of the problem is the critical issue. Generally, if the amount sharpness is only a few cents, it should be ignored.

Hysteresis can also be caused by a lack of free movement (read: lubrication) in the changer, or misadjusted return or helper springs.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

My Infinity has little to no hysteresis. Roller nuts are 3/8" in diameter and use a 1/16" diameter axle, yep that's right, a 0.0625" diameter axle. The smaller you can make that axle, the better to combat hysteresis.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Engaging a lever to play in B6th (instead of E9) should solve your problem.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

E9th is way more sensitive to small tuning issues.
The 6th tuning is more forgiving to small tuning issues.
Trying to hold a lever perfectly still at the E-note to engage the E9th tuning is not easy.
Whatever the reason, the 6th side of the Universal sounds fine when you hold or Lock the lever that engages the 6th tuning.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Hmm. I did a fair amount of playing with that set up. I did't find holding the lever in to do E9 stuff to be difficult, per se. It just took some getting used to, but after the reflexes developed it was pretty manageable and intuitive. My lever had a hard stop at E and it was on RKL. The weird and difficult thing was dealing with the D#s that would return 8-10 cents sharp. ( stings 4 and 8 ) They also lowered to D on the left knee, and after lowering quickly and releasing, they'd be in tune again.
When the lever was engaged, the E9 tuning was fine. It was the B6 side that paid the price...

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Have you tired your experiment with a keyless guitar? They have less hysterisis than keyed Steels.
Hysterisis is often cause by a fragment of the string getting moved to one side of the roller nut or the other, when a string is raised or lowered. When you release the raise or lower, a fragment of the string is still stuck on one side or the other of the roller nut, on a keyed Steel.
As you say, it takes a separate raise or lower to "reset" the string to "in-tune".

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Maintenance?
Slacken or remove your strings, pull the axle out (may not be possible on all guitars), pick up rollers noting their position so they can be replaced in the same order (they have graduated depths), soak in alcohol to remove all the aluminum/oil slurry, clean the slots thoroughly, oil, and replace,.
This is what I used to do on a guitar that had excessive hysteresis and it worked for a while until the aluminum oil slurry developed again.
I've never been impressed with PSG manufactures using aluminum as a bearing surface. I understand though that things could be quite expensive otherwise.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I had a problem with Hysteresis at one time, My first modern steel guitar in 1998 or 99 was an S10 built with a 12 string key head. Strings 5 and 6 had near 6 inches of dead string from the nut roller to key.

It took some calculating and work to get the problem under control, Then good maintenance took care of the problem.
Check the Nut Roller Slots. Use a piece of 600 grit sandpaper/Emery cloth backed by with hack saw blade or tongue suppressor to smooth contact area in the slot for roller. Lightly rub sides of rollers on a flat stone to remove any small burrs. Check the nut roller shaft for rust and rough places. Remove any rust and polish with 0000 steel wool.

The only lube I found that would take the pressure was Zebco Silicone Fishing Reel Grease.

When installing new strings, As the string is wound on the
capstan of the key, Plan the length of string and winding so the string will line up with little side pull on the roller, At final tuning position.

Every 3rd string change, I removed the rollers, KEEPING THEM IN ORDER. Cleaned the rollers and slots, Polished the shaft with 0000 steel wool and used Zebco Grease. Worked for years.

String alignment over the roller nut on my present 12 string U Keyed.

The 5 larger wound strings have to be wound on the capstan toward the end of the shaft for near perfect alignment.

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