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Topic: Fender 400 ,... Pedal Tuning |
Brian LeBlanc
From:
Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 9:04 pm |
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i'm trying to tune the pedals on this late 60's contraption for ...1st time
- E9 ...
- i'm turning the little-tiny-pret-near-microscopic screws on end with D pedal down
- screw turns
- but not getting any tuning action
- ie, E goes down but not all way to D#
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'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2022 10:40 pm
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Are you sure you are turning the right screw- easy to get "screwed up"  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 6:01 am
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| The silver screws raise, and the black ones lower. Make sure you don't have the cables so tight that they are moving the fingers without the pedal being activated. With no pedals pressed, the fingers must all be in a straight line! |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 6:40 am
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Yes you must be sure that cables are snug but not over tightened. Then they can stretch and become a problem pulling the fingers up to pitch. I would back out BOTH the raise and lower screws for that string and start from scratch. Remember that these are OLD and are usually coated with gummy oil, dust, dirt, hair and cigarette tar. I'd remove the changer, flush it and/or soak it in naptha and wire bush that stuff off it. There are a few Fender players here but there is much more info including tuning and maintenance guides on the Facebook page for Fender Pedal Steel. Fenders are simple but quite different from a “normal “ pedal steel.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 7:02 am
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Aint much i can add to the good advice above- i dont tune my pulls with the pedals depressed.
At initial set up,i would run the desired screw all the way in,back out about one turn and start there.
I engage, release,adjust,engage,release, adjust,etc.
Might not be right,but it works on mine.
They are a simple machine,but gotta be clean. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 7:44 am
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| Fender cable guitars operate the exact opposite of most all-pull, rodded guitars. On these old Fenders, the more you tighten the tuning screws, the less the fingers move. And loosening the screws actually increases the amount of change. Also, since they have this "backwards" character, the tuning screws need not have slack, and they can't be "overtuned". Rather, it's the turnbuckles on these guitars being overtightened that causes an "overtuning" effect. |
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Brian LeBlanc
From:
Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 9:32 am fool-o up
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Well;
- Donny; i tryd turning screw both CW & CCW...dont notice any change...not sure what "over tuning" is ...most people say i'm "under tuned" and not in a good way
- Michel; 400 manual say "depress actuating pedal", so you dont?
- K; for reason (could be alot) Facebook wont let me log into site(s)...steels been idle several years not too dirty and pedals pretty close to right...except D pedal lowering the E's (4& ; cables dont look 2 tite to me, ie... a little slack
- Jim; well i'm on low E (string 8 ...or 1 in Fender manual), 1st black screw...that maffamatics i can handle...i think
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'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 11:08 am
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Out of curiousity....
Have you verified the loop on the cable, that hooks on the changer finger,is indeed on the lowering finger?
I have made that error before. |
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Mark Perrodin
From:
Tucson Arizona, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 11:17 am 400
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Frenchy,
when i got my first 400 i always screwed up my pedal tuning because i was usually tuning the wrong screw. i needed to decipher which screw did what and when i realized that the part of the finger which had the spring attached corresponded to lowering the string then things got better. when i received the guitar i didn’t realize that someone had swapped the screws and they were all the same color. now on my 3 400’s i have swapped the screws for hex head cap screws with the raises being stainless and the lowers being black oxide. 4-40x1” worked for me. if it’s not something simple like that you will have to take all the cables and springs off the fingers and remove the slotted bottom plate. i have had two adjusters with either a broken loop or the solder joint broken. easy fixes plus if your springs are off and they are stock now would be the time to get a spring that has less tension. it’s all about balance and well worth the monkeying around required to get it going. you can do it! good luck.
mark |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 12:57 pm
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I had a 400 in here one time where the owner had used screws that were 1=1/4" long instead of the proper 1". Some pulls just simply couldn't be tuned. I just simply installed all new 1" screws. You can get stainless from McMaster-Carr for the raise screws, but they come in lots of 100. I have many of both stainless and oxide left. PM me your snail-mail address and I'll send some your way if you need them. On the early 400's the loops were just that....loops. If there was too much slack in the cable, the loop would sometimes drop out of the slot. A short time later, Fender narrowed the shape of the loops so they couldn't drop out. The cables must be slacked just a little with the turnbuckles. Then start backing out the relevant tuning screw until you get the note you want. Once a Fender cable job is set up, you never have to reset in unless you change string brands or gages. IMO the knife-edge/blade-type changer on the early Fender cable guitars was the most accurate and mechanically repetitive changer system ever made and is still the top dog 2/3 of a century later.
PRR |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 4:51 pm
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Is your pedal possibly bottoming out on the floor before the string lowers to the desired pitch? I’ve had that happen before….lowering the E’s does require a longer pedal throw on the late 60’s short scale Fenders…..easy fix😊 that’s about all I can think of that hasn’t been mentioned already.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2022 6:48 pm
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Once you find the culprit, it should be an easy fix. These are set-it-once-and-forget-it guitars. I love mine. I wish I'd have bought one 25 years ago.
PRR |
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Brian LeBlanc
From:
Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 7:03 am ...follow'n up
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...i WAS able to adjust A/B/F pedals (raises)
but not the D lower
- checked underneath for cable attachment
- loop/screw relation looks good 2 me
- looks like original screws
- but its like i'm running out of screw
- ...can only get 1/2 way between E & D#
AND...got banned from FB Market place for listing a 1966 Blackface Pro Reverb!
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'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 7:31 am
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| On this E to D# lower,are you dropping both E's? |
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Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 9:58 am
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| I have the same issue with my E to D# pedal having to much travel to use in conjunction with the B pedal. I am thinking about adding a pulley to reduce the pedal throw to a more manageable level. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 11:48 am
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Some pics of the whole underside would help, along with a close-up of the changer underside.  |
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Brian LeBlanc
From:
Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 4:02 pm Dave ... CHECKZ IN THE MAIL !
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I flipped pedal rods around ...
and all of a sudden ...
i had room to drop the E'z to D#
ITS FREAKN AMAZING !
..now i'm a 400 geni-ass!
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'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 4:39 pm
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| You flipped the pedal rods around...what? |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 5:50 pm
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Donny I think he means he swapped them..
Brian, those rods should be adjustable . Do you have a digital copy of the manual?
Glad you got it working, I have so much fun playing my Fenders!
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jan 2022 9:33 pm
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There's really no need to swap them. They can be adjusted for length (which raises or lowers the pedals) by just turning the ball ends while they're hooked into the pedals!
It really doesn't get any easier than that!  |
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Brian LeBlanc
From:
Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2022 6:20 am Agh !
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- Yeah, 1 thing i do-no is rods are adjustable
- was trying to guess how prior-player had them (for some reason!)
- BUT...new issue
- Pressing "A" Pedal (B>C# notes) by itself returns Sharp
- ...pedals A&B together : OK
- ...Pedals A&F: ok
- ...Pressing Pedal B by itself returns the B (note) to correct
- ...Releasing Pedal F by itself returns the B (note) to correct
- ...when i pull the "fingers" under changer for string with my finger..it returns sharp
- hoping I dont have to dis-assemble this thing
-... and maybe just douse changer mechainism with "cleaner"?
- JNewman used to use Ligher Fluid...that still around??
- at least now i hit the correct adjustment screws (with great effort)
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'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 27 Jan 2022 9:13 am Re: Agh !
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| Brian LeBlanc wrote: |
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- Pressing "A" Pedal (B>C# notes) by itself returns Sharp
- ...pedals A&B together : OK
- ...when i pull the "fingers" under changer for string with my finger..it returns sharp
- hoping I dont have to dis-assemble this thing
-... and maybe just douse changer mechainism with "cleaner"? |
Cable pulleys rub against each other and get hung up, cables get misaligned, crossed over each other. Pictures would help. Your cables need to go a SPECIFIC way in correct order through the big pulley. I’ll say these two things again: old Fenders need to be taken apart and cleaned with (yes) naptha lighter fluid to cut the gunk.. Go to the Facebook Fender Steel guitar page for better, more detailed help.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2022 9:15 am
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Might be the A cable is binding against another cable; when another pull is made it is allowing it to travel freely.
Once i had my B pedal going sharp when i mashed A,but didnt when i mashed B alone.
That was from the big pulley being gummed,and the discs were sticking.
I would visually see what was moving/ not moving while the pedals get mashed.I feel like something is binding,but you wont know unless you look at everything.I have learned most issues i have / had are simple fixes.
I use Ronson lighter fluid( like for an old fashioned cigarette lighter.)
If you were in southern VA i would be able to meet up and help you.
Looks like Kevin and me were typing bout the same time lol. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 27 Jan 2022 11:32 am
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Jim Sliff has written an extremely valuable guide for Fender cleaning, lube and adjustment. He visits here sometimes but has reiterated this stuff multiple times to new owners so that’s why he wrote it. It helped me immensely. The only way I know to access it is through FB. I know lots of people don’t like it but it’s worth joining that one page for the knowledge you will attain.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Jan 2022 8:07 am
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| K Maul wrote: |
| The only way I know to access it is through FB. I know lots of people don’t like it but it’s worth joining that one page for the knowledge you will attain. |
Thats a shame, because Facebook (and all it's inherent "snooping") will just never work for me.
As to keeping the cables in their proper position on the pulley, that's far easier if you drill or Dremel-grind a large hole in the pulley bracket. That little trick easier makes it a snap to see If they're laying properly on the sheaves.  |
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