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Topic: Searching for better Tone |
Mick OGrady
From:
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 1:24 pm |
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| I have a Fessenden SD-10 and a Nashville 112 with a passive Goodrich volume pedal. I just find my tone is muddy no matter what knob twisting I do. I know tone is very much about technique and picking style. And maybe this is a stupid question. But listening to the Lloyd Green and Jaydee Maness video of Hickory Wind I was really blown away by the focused tone of Jaydee Maness's set up. Is there some sort of box that he is using or that could be used to get that focused tone. The highs are clear but not shrill and the low end is really focused and sweet sounding. I am considering buying a Steel Guitar Black Box. Also I have been reading about the Steel Driver 3 but it is very expensive and I am not interested in the distortion feature as I have plenty of pedals that would serve that function. Any thoughts? |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 1:36 pm
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| Check that you have the volume pedal connected properly. Maybe the input and output are reversed. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 2:38 pm
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I very recently borrowed an N112 in order to do an A/B test with a Quilter TT12 (I had someone who might buy the Quilter but I wanted him to hear the Peavey on the chance that he might want to save a lot of $$ choosing that instead of the Quilter). It was my first time messing with an N112. My basic impressions were that the Peavey was a real good sounding amp, it had a nice sweet spot, but it could not achieve the glassy transparency of the Quilter. It always had a bit of thickness in the middle...I'd call it mud but I don't feel like fighting with people getting all defensive about their favorite amp. I DID feel that I could have dialed it in better, given enough time. The key certainly was in finding the right mid frequency and cutting it. That's another thing I liked about the amp -- you could dial in a number of different flavors via the mid sweep.
I also just recently got a SGBB. I found it too subtle for my uses around 20 years ago when I bought one from Brad and I returned it. This time 'round I am loving it. Especially for treating the highs without throwing a blanket over them. I'm not sure what to do with the term 'focus'. That can mean different things to different people and I'm not quite knowing what it means to you.
No mistake -- Jay Dee's push-pull cannot be overlooked in the equation. But I am not saying that it an essential part of what you are hearing and seeking.
Or is it? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 6:53 pm
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You can certainly try a stomp-box pedal between the guitar and volume pedal to isolate the pickup from excess loading. Sometimes that will help, and sometimes it won't. The Steel Drivers were all the vogue 30-40 years ago, but not so much these days. IMHO, there are a whole lot of different factors that cause a player's specific tone: guitar, pickups, cables, volume pedal, amp, speakers, and last but not least - the player. All those pros you're listening to have worked for decades to get the tone they have now, and none of them sound the same now as they did 30 or more years ago. I know a ton of players that tried find tone in a "box" of one kind or another, and for the vast majority, it didn't work. Great tone is a journey, an endless experiment. It's not something you just go out and buy.
my2cents, anyway. |
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Mike Auman
From:
North Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 8:49 pm
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Give this a try - run a cable directly from your guitar to your amp, bypassing your volume pedal. (you can control the volume with the amp knobs.) If your tone sounds better, think about either (1) an active volume pedal or (2) a buffer between your guitar and your passive volume pedal. Either one will provide a higher input impedance that's more like your amp, and should improve the high-end part of your signal. You can get a buffer for under $100 and it won't change the volume level or add any effects. Of course, there are all the other tone-related factors already mentioned as well.
_________________
Long-time guitar player, now wrestling with lap steel. |
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Karl Paulsen
From:
Chicago
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 7:12 am
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I have found that the secret to obtaining good tone on my '112' is to run the midrange knob between the 7:00 and 8:00 0'clock position to minimize the "midrange honk" inherent in many Peavey models (Buddy Emmons referred to it as "the goose"). I set the controls at the following:
Bass=3:00 o'clock
Mids=7:00 o'clock
Treble=9:00 0'clock. |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 7:20 am
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I am with David. Tweaking the mids is key. On my 112, I run -6 at 800 hertz.
Mick, what midrange settings have you been using on your 112? This could be the answer--as opposed to getting more gadgets.
Mike's suggestion of an active pedal is also good. I use a Hilton.
Chris |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 7:28 am
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I basically agree with Donny - since you're using a passive volume pedal, perhaps a buffer would help clear up the mud that bothers you. If you're keeping the volume pedal at 1/3 to 1/2 of full-on much of the time like many pedal steel players do, it can take away some sparkle. Lots of effects can be an effective buffer, but I personally like the Sarno Freeloader, which is a unity-gain but variable input impedance device. Although Brad recommends using before volume pedal, and sounds good that way, it can also be effectively used after volume pedal at 1 MegOhm, which gets me in the same ballpark as running a passive volume pedal into a typical 1 MegOhm impedance of an old blackface/silverface Fender.
I looked at that video just now. There's a silverface Fender in back of Lloyd, and a pair of what look like 12" speaker cabs in back of Jaydee. Maybe a Quilter? I have a Quilter Tone Block, and it definitely has more of a Fender vibe than a Nashville 112. The Peavey definitely has a lower input impednce, which could be part of your issue. But I have one of them too, and they can be dialed in very nicely. But I am more likely to use a buffer with that amp. I used to turn the mids way down on that amp, but am less likely to do that these days, especially with the Freeloader.
But the guitar, strings, pickup(s), cables, effects, and especially playing technique matter. To me, Lloyd sounded like Lloyd, and Jaydee sounded like Jaydee. Some of it may be equipment, but I think a lot of it is them. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 1:43 pm
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Mick turn the mid and shift all the way to the right. Set the bass and treble and pre to 1-2:00 o’clock, now begin dialing the sound you want to here. Call me if you questions. Do not buy any other gear components at this time.
971-219-8533
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 3:40 pm
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Go give a listen to the Willie Nelson album, "You Don't Know Me - the Songs of Cindy Walker"
This is Buddy Emmons on steel. He had a Nashville 112 and didn't love it yet. But then he got a Black Box, and then the amp came alive for him. He took that setup to the studio, they miked the Nashville 112, and that's what you hear on the album.
B |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 7:03 pm
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Brad I have bought and sold several of them, I am back again glad I am. Having said that, if your system is set “to muddy” one must first discover how to clean it up. For me and some others the BB rolls of the shrill of the highs and cleans up the low end at the same time. Got to love it.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Jeff Neal
From:
Johnson City Tennessee, USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 10:41 pm Sound
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| Mick, I have both the 112 and the Quilter 202. I started on the 112 years ago and found that Tommy White had the best sound from a 112 and a Mullen RP. The secret to the the 112 is the shift knob. Put it just a touch above the 300 mark and then use the Mid knob to negative 9 or 15, low high to taste and presence all the way off. I found the Quilter really easy and quick to dial in better tone quickly using the voice to vint setting. Do a search for Travis Toy and his amp. I still have my 112 but use my TT 12 with my Emmons and Sho Bud as my main rig. The 112 is a great amp as well as the Quilter. Don't be afraid to pull out those mids on the Nashville 112. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 11:41 pm
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Cutting tone controls retards the amp cleanliness AND power. Open it up and let it work and breathe, watch it come alive. We need to push the mid range, that is where the steel needs to be, not buried in the mud
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 11:50 pm
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An alternative to using a buffer is to simply change the input impedance of your amp. I forgot now what my Peavey was originally but replacing the input resistor that the pickup sees with a 470k (470,000) greatly improved the tone.
A buffer is an amp with a high input impedance.
BTW all Fender tube amps have 1 megaohm (1,000,000) input resistor. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 12:55 am
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| Quote: |
| I forgot now what my Peavey was originally but replacing the input resistor that the pickup sees with a 470k (470,000) greatly improved the tone. |
Yeah, Jim, I have thought of doing exactly that, I guess I oughta try it. On the Nashville 112, the input impedance is 220K Ohms on the high gain input, and 68K Ohms on the low gain input. It's harder to add something that isn't there than cut something that is a bit too much.
Manual with specs here - https://peavey.com/manuals/nashville112.pdf
| Quote: |
| Cutting tone controls retards the amp cleanliness AND power. Open it up and let it work and breathe, watch it come alive. We need to push the mid range, that is where the steel needs to be, not buried in the mud |
Yes, I basically agree with this. I used to cut the midrange a lot more, but I found I was getting lost in the mix. These days I push the midrange more and control it with how I attack the strings. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 3:42 am
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As I'm mainly in agreement with Larry Behm's and Jim Pitman's comments above, I do not cut anything in an NV112's frequency response, and bypass all of that amp's stages that do not "play along" with my preferences.
What I end up with is an LMB-3 as buffer (as I'd never play without one anyway), a passiv VP (the buffer makes type of VP pretty irrelevant as long as it is passive), cabled directly into the NV112's power amp input (POST EQ).
The LMB-3 provides me with more than enough EQ'ing for my taste (high only), and its 1Mohm input impedance suits all PU's I have tested it with. Slight and playable compression makes all PSGs sound more "lively", at least when I play them…
Actual setup presented in more details here.
Note that the NV112's lower cut-off frequency goes down an octave or so when INPUT and EQ stages are bypassed, which works wonders for extended-range PSGs. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 4:59 am
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and how old are your strings ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 5:19 am
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I have a love-hate with my guitar/amp. However, the worst offender in how good or bad my sound is is MY ears. I have many amplifiers both tube and solid-state, but I always come back to my 70s Session 400. Sound good vs bad is not limited to just pedal steel. I hear much the same stuff from the guys I pick with about their instruments and amps. Even drummers. One thing I have discovered though is that no matter which guitar or amp I use or which effects, I still sound like me. So I have decided I like me and my sound. It isn't Buddy, Lloyd, or Doug, but I like it.
Another thing about my sound I have learned is I do NOT cut the mids and highs while trying to boost the bass. On the C6 there is some bass, but on E9 there is almost none. So when you start cutting the mids and highs on E9, it does not leave much. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 7:15 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
What I end up with is an LMB-3 as buffer (as I'd never play without one anyway), a passiv VP….. |
I am happy with my Quilter TT202, Aviator Gold and my old Evans 80 12”. They have a tone and response that is near perfect for me. However, I like that LMB-3 idea! Thanks.
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 7:40 am
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I'm one of the holdouts. I still cut the mids...considerably. When you crank up the mids, all the bass and "fullness" goes out the window. It's like listening through a 6" speaker. Oh sure, it cuts through, but I'd far rather have richness and fullness in my sound, like an organ, and I still get plenty of brightness and treble through the passive volume pedal.
This is an old and crappy live clip, but it'll give you an idea of what my preferred tone is:
https://soundcloud.com/user812921474/stones-1 |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 9:36 am
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Donny Hinson nailed the right sound. It is your preferred sound. A good sound for pedal steel is an extremely personally subjective sound, I think.
I saw an article about Chet Atkins where someone remarked what a great sound his '59 Country Gentleman had. Chet put his guitar down and asked, "how does it sound now?" I do not know if the article is perfectly true, but it does have a point.
I had the honor of sitting at Buddy's guitar during a break many years ago and I can state for a fact that I did not sound like Buddy. He laughed when I picked up a broken string he had put on the floor and asked him if I could have it. He said yes and even rolled it up for me. I still have it in my steel seat.
Just a couple of thoughts for a rainy Sunday in December. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 10:18 am
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| Bill, what I do is what I do, it's just my personal choice. I really don't advocate that anyone copy me; I just state what I prefer. I think that everyone should choose their own path, and not blindly follow someone else. That just exacerbates the incredible sameness we hear today. Fifty to sixty years ago, there was such a wonderful variety of steel tones, and now there isn't. I can't help but relating some of the demise of steel being used on recordings these days to that circumstance. We've gone from unique sounds to generic ones. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 10:25 am
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| Donnie Hinson, Amen to that! |
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