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Topic: Balanced String Gauges? |
Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 8:26 am |
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Would the Pedal Steel Guitar benefit by transitioning from the string gauges traditionally used to those that would provide consistent tension across the changer itself?
Discussions of tuning stability and cabinet drop come up all the time on the forum, and it got me thinking about string tension in relation to stability of the changer. It would make sense to me that if we balanced the tension across the changer, some of these things would be mitigated and the bar would also fret evenly across the strings.
The following data comes off an online calculator and should be used for a basis of discussion to strings relative tension, more than focusing specifically on the numbers.
E9th -- Ave 27.99 -- Total 279.9
Gauge - Note - Tension - % of Average
.013p - F# - 34.3 - 22.5% over
.015p - D# - 32.3 - 15.3% over
.011p - G# - 23.1 - 17.4% under
.014p - E - 31.6 - 12.8% over
.017p - B - 26.2 - 06.3% under
.020p - G# -25.6 - 08.5% under
.024w - F# - 23.9 - 14.6% under
.028w - E - 26.4 - 05.6% under
.034w - D - 30.4 - 08.6% over
.038w - B - 26.1 - 06.7% under
C6th -- Ave 28.48 -- Total 284.8
Gauge - Note - Tension - % of Average
.017p - D - 37.0 - 29.9% over average
.014p - E - 31.6 - 10.9% over
.017p - C - 29.4 - 03.2% over
.020p - A - 28.7 - 00.7% over
.024w - G - 26.9 - 05.5% under
.030w - E - 29.9 - 04.9% over
.036w - C - 25.9 - 09.0% under
.042w - A - 25.5 - 10.4% under
.054w - F - 25.9 - 09.0% under
.070w - C - 24.0 - 15.7% under
I've been experimenting with string gauges since I got into Pedal Steel three years ago. I run a much heavier set currently that I outlined below, and as best as I can I have balanced tension across the changer. I know its a pain to do it this way, and I'm stuck buying stings as singles - and purchasing gauged rollers as I change things up. I'm setup for Universal E9th/B6th 10 String without the E9th String 9 "D" - But I'm going to list these per E9th for clarity.
E9th -- Ave 35.66 -- Total 356.6
Gauge - Note - Tension - % of Average
.013p - F# - 34.3 - 03.8% under
.016p - D# - 36.8 -03.1% over
.012p - G# - 36.9 - 03.4% over
.015p - E - 36.3 - 01.7% over
.020p - B - 36.2 - 01.5% over
.024p - G# - 36.9 - 03.4% over
.028w - F# - 33.3 - 06.6% under
.032w - E - 34.4 - 03.5% under
.038w - D - 36.9 - 03.4% over
.044w - B - 34.6 - 02.9% under
Am I off in thinking that balancing the tension across the neck of the guitar improve tuning stability?
Should we keep to the traditional string gauges, accept these instabilities and correct with compensators, sweetened tunings or in post production?
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 8:58 am
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Whatever balance you achieve will be thrown out as soon as you engage a pedal or lever. If tuning stability is a concern, perhaps you should be looking at other factors. I use the gauges that sound and feel right (largely traditional) and I suffer no issues.
Sorry to pour cold water on all your arithmetic 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 9:03 am
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🦋
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 22 Sep 2021 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 11:44 am
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There are some (not a ton of) online discussions about the general issue of string tension and tension balance on guitars in general. What I frequently read is that string makers/marketers seem to think that the main issue is volume/tonal balance from string to string, not tension balance. For me, the biggest issue seem to be the lower tension on the low strings, which has always bugged me. Their arguments are not really convincing to me. I feel that things sound better with reasonably balanced tension strings, right across the neck, and it's not too tough to deal with increased volume on the lower fat strings by lowering the pickup(s) on the bass side.
But it is rather a PITA to have to always be making up string sets out of singles. If I count standard fretted guitar, slide guitar, steels (both pedal and non-pedal), and banjo, I have a lot of instruments. So having to make up all my sets would make it even tougher to keep up with string changes.
However, for some time now, I have been using balanced-tension sets that I make up myself out of bulk single strings for slide guitar and non-pedal steel. I feel better playing these guitars with more balanced tensions. On 6-string slide guitar, the top 3 strings are generally heavier, 4 and 5 are a bit lower gauge, and string 6 is frequently a lot heavier. But this also depends on how much tension I want overall - I also fret behind the slide a lot, so that is an issue, not to mention the different sound from different overall string tension. On fretted guitar, I sometimes do go for a more balanced set too, which is similar to the issue for slide guitar, but the numbers are different.
While going through this process, I also made the requisite calculations for standard pedal steel sets, as you have, and noticed just how unbalanced the string tensions are. I have done some experimenting with slight changes in certain strings, like going for slightly heavier 12/18/22p strings for 3/5/6 on E9 and a bit heavier on the lower wounds. I think the most common 'standard' E9 set is, top-to-bottom, 13, 15, 11, 14, 17, 20p, 26w, 30, 34, and 36 or 38 for string 10, so for me the biggest issue on the low strings is string 10, and 42 works pretty well and is a common gauge.
I have always been troubled by the slack tension on the bottom four strings of C6 - especially string 10. I think it not only gives too much thud, but also makes it hard to stabilize the tuning.
On Ian's point about balance being perturbed by the raise/lower - I sorta disagree there. Yes, the tensions are perturbed, but I find the most egregious issues are extra slack strings where there are large lowers - e.g., whole-tone drop on slack E9 6th string G#, and tone-and-a-half drop on the very slack C6 10th string. I tried a .080 on one of my C6 10th strings whose tuner could handle it - it sounded much better to me, and I had a much easier time tuning it and keeping it tuned.
There are some practical difficulties, however. Not all tuning pegs will tolerate anything like a .080w string. I had to ream out the tuning peg hole on an 8-string slide guitar I had a while back, and I'm a bit reluctant to do that on my pedal steels - it isn't always easy to find replacement tuners, as it generally is on guitar, should there be a problem. And I cannot tolerate the thuddy sound of a 24p string anywhere. I have tried (just last week again on a slide guitar), and I just can't live with it. Even 22p has a bit of a thud tuned to G#, which I suspect is why a lot of players opt for either the slack 20p or go with a 24w there, and either eschew the whole-tone lower, or find some way to make the wound string drop a whole tone. I really insist on having the string 6 whole-tone drop.
And I haven't even gotten into what I think are the benefits and challenges of having a more stable set of nominal string tensions from a mechanical leverage point of view. Of course, this would undoubtedly mean re-jigging some of the leverages, not something everybody wants to get into. Pedal steels generally come set up for standard-gauge strings.
And of course, unless one does something like juststring.com's bulk strings, it is frequently expensive - sometimes a lot more expensive - to do everything from single strings. But doing the bulk strings really does limit what kind of strings one has available.
Perhaps more than most people want to read about this, but I've been wrestling with this for a long time now. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 12:42 pm
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I appreciate your thinking, but it's a lot of trouble for what might be no gain at all on some guitars. And as others have said, all that "equal tension stuff" goes out the window once you start pushing pedals. As far as making the bar fret easier, that's pretty much a non-issue once you attain a modicum of skill, and most issues are caused by string gauges, not tension. (Some of the "best" guitars don't even have gauged rollers!) As with most of these mental exercises to make things easier, I'm more of the nature of just go ahead and play. Most guitars will play quite nicely with the proper player behind them. Dealing with the myriad minor issues is part of learning to play the instrument.
As my old man was wont to say..."Nothing good comes easy". |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 1:05 pm
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Whatever you feel is right for you.
I bought a new D-10 Franklin, Delivered Dec 82. Mr Franklin told me to use the "Sho-Bud" gauges (same as the George L's Nashville). I used those gauges for 38+ years I had the guitar and no tuning, pedaling or volume issues. |
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James Polk
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 3:53 pm
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| A good, and I think fairly affordable, approach to this may be to use a company like StringJoy and order a few custom sets. They’re really not priced all that different from a normal set. That’d definitely get you some to mess around with. I don’t think they make specific sets for PS but it’s all customizable. |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 12:14 pm
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I appreciate the initial feedback, y'all. I'm going to focus on some of Mr. Mudgett's comments here:
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| There are some (not a ton of) online discussions about the general issue of string tension and tension balance on guitars in general. What I frequently read is that string makers/marketers seem to think that the main issue is volume/tonal balance from string to string, not tension balance. For me, the biggest issue seem to be the lower tension on the low strings, which has always bugged me. Their arguments are not really convincing to me. I feel that things sound better with reasonably balanced tension strings, right across the neck, and it's not too tough to deal with increased volume on the lower fat strings by lowering the pickup(s) on the bass side. |
The lack of tension on wound bass strings have always bothered me, even on 6 string guitar, as well. For reference I play a .052w on the low E of a Telecaster.
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I have always been troubled by the slack tension on the bottom four strings of C6 - especially string 10. I think it not only gives too much thud, but also makes it hard to stabilize the tuning. |
This is really the concern that caused me to start thinking about this more specifically. I have a universal set-up and have started to consider purchasing a new SD-12 so I can get the lower register. However, I hear the greats play on C6th, and it - nothing against them at all they have made careers out of playing these things - but the bass sounds really flabby and loose. I can't help but think that tightening that up wouldn't improve the tone.
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| And I cannot tolerate the thuddy sound of a 24p string anywhere. I have tried (just last week again on a slide guitar), and I just can't live with it. Even 22p has a bit of a thud tuned to G#, which I suspect is why a lot of players opt for either the slack 20p or go with a 24w there, and either eschew the whole-tone lower, or find some way to make the wound string drop a whole tone. I really insist on having the string 6 whole-tone drop. |
I'm still working witht the 6th string G#, right now the .024p provides me a short throw on the G#-F# lower, and still allows for me to raise the G# to B. Something I wasn't able to do when I experimented with a wound string in that position.
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| And I haven't even gotten into what I think are the benefits and challenges of having a more stable set of nominal string tensions from a mechanical leverage point of view. Of course, this would undoubtedly mean re-jigging some of the leverages, not something everybody wants to get into. Pedal steels generally come set up for standard-gauge strings. |
I've had this Justice apart 4 or 5 times now to the chassis, experimentation and tinkering are all a part of me understanding how the guitar functions, and the music that we all make. I've been lucky to work with builders that have afforded me the opportunity via parts availability to experiment as I have.
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Perhaps more than most people want to read about this, but I've been wrestling with this for a long time now. |
I figure someone else out there had.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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