Looking for Improvement

Larry Ball · From: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Looking for advice on how to improve the sound of my PSG that I am recording. I have listened to many Great Players on the forum that have recorded their own tracks and love the sound quality they are getting on their track. There are to many examples to name so I will just categorize my thoughts and expectations.

I realize your actual playing would be a question along with equipment etc. I feel I have good equipment and I am a novice player. That being said I have recorded different ways and found my best sound coming from playing directly into a â€œPresonusâ€ tube channel strip then into a Focusrite Audio Interface then into my Ableton DAW.

My first thought is the DAW is mainly controlling the sound track. I have listened to many home recordings over the years from players on six string and steel noticing their sound is the same regardless of what type of guitar they are playing. There may be shuttle changes in sound but that is all. This then leads me to believe their sound is being driven by the DAW.

I would attach a couple of my own tracks for you not to judge my novice performance but to list to the sound. However my computer skills are limited and I am not sure how to as my tracks are in my Dropbox.

I will appreciate deeply your thoughts..

Larry
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Jim Fogle · From: North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA

Larry,

Do you normally practice with your steel connected through your recording rig and computer or through an amplifier? In the beginning it may be easier to obtain the sound you want by recording the amplifier sound you hear. The key is to first get the sound you want from your amplifier and then to use a microphone to capture what you hear.

Playing technique, tone settings and amplifier settings all effect the sound that will be recorded so mess with them until everything sounds good.

Next is getting the microphone to capture the sound you hear. You may find you have to move the amplifier to a closet or cover it with a blanket to capture the sound you hear. You will find that moving the microphone just an inch left, right, forward or backwards makes a huge difference in the sound the microphone captures. It helps to have a friend you can direct how to move the microphone while you play and listen. You don't care how weird the recording setup looks, it's all about how it sounds.

Once you have the sound just like you want it you can add a direct connection from your steel to your audio interface. This is called a direct connect or DI connection.

That will give Ableton the raw, steel signal in addition to the microphone signal. You can EQ and add effects to the raw audio signal and then blend and mix the two signals together to create a fuller sound or something different altogether.
_________________
Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Pedal Steel Player
Dell laptop Win 10, i3, 8GB, 480GB
2024 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab software & Zoom MRS-8 hardware DAWs
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Rick Campbell · From: Sneedville, TN, USA

Larry,

There's no certain piece of gear that is the magic bullet for getting good sound. Playing around with different gear is part of the addiction we have as musicians. You are so correct that the pro players always sound good. It amuses me when a very good player endorses a piece of equipment and brags about how it's improved their sound. I'm thinking, if I didn't know how good you have sounded for the past ten years, I would have assumed you sounded really weak before you got this new piece of gear. Smile

I consider myself a novice steel player and I record old country songs because I don't find bands that are interested in playing them. Some of my stuff comes out pretty good, but I've never did anything in the studio that I was totally satisfied with. I always think it could be better. I'm including professional sessions that I've played on.

My current steel setup is as follows: 1974 Emmons push pull, to volume pedal, to Quilter Superblock, to Presonus IO station interface, into Studio One DAW. I add some reverb in the DAW, and ocassionally a small amount of delay. For vocals and acoustic instruments, the mic goes through a Warm Audio 73 preamp.

I have come to believe that pro quality players (I say pro quality because I know many great players that don't play professionally, but they sound great.) Use what they have and adjust it to achieve the sound they desire.

Finally, there is no substitute for experience when it comes to recording and engineering. I learn something everytime I do a song. I'd like to think I'm getting better as time goes on, but I wouldn't swear to it. A way to shortcut the experience is to pick the brain of the experienced people. I have a victim or two in my circle for that.

If I were you, I'd play around with different ways and setups until it starts coming together. One thing I learned is that just because you have a piece of gear, doesn't mean you have to use it on everything you do. Once you get into it, develop specific questions and post them here in this forum. There's a lot of talented people here that should be willing to offer suggestions.

RC

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

interesting question, SOUND- For some it comes sooner rather than later, for others it never arrives .

Space and EQ will either bury you or lift you up.

Where does the Steel sit on the track , is it competing in the same space and and is it competing with other instruments for the same EQ profile ?

Here's a couple of thoughts- taken from the pro's

EQ under 100 is MUD, don't allow that on your track , it will overburden the entire track
150 - 200 adds bottom end thickness
300 - 1000 adds life -so they say
1000 - 2000 is what they call HONK- mids
3000 - 8000 is bright and presence

the trick is to learn how YOUR sound is effected by these parameters, add some - subtract some

Then place the Steel in the mix in its OWN location ( space ).

Also how the Steel sounds in comparison to all other Instruments is part of the equation.

Once you get a few you like, SAVE the EQ patches in your DAW Library

This is not easy stuff, that's why they have SOUND ENGINEERS in the control room and MIXING engineers for the finals

You may also want to use some very gentle compression on the Steel tracks to keep it consistent. Same thing, try a few different parameters, save them. Threshold and Ratio settings will give you the most audible differences. Compression should be subtle, you can see it working but not really hear it.

It all works together and just takes seat time. Sometimes LOTS of seat time.

there are excellent articles on this stuff, sometimes too many. Pick one or two and run with them.

As Rick says above, each time we track a session, we learn something new.

best

tp
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Focusrite interfaces are popular. I've had or tried out several from a Saffire Pro 40 to several Scarlet Gen 1 and 2. The preamps all sound the same, recorded, and that is the high frequencies sound like a treble control is cutting the highs. I found that out with the Saffire Pro; I had a recording with a steel track that I needed to fix. The Saffire Pro power switch failed and I used my MAudio Fastrack Ultra 8R (my backup unit) to fix the steel track and there was a noticeable difference - clearer tone and highs with the MAudio. I thought the MAudio was the problem but a couple months later I sold the Saffire Pro 40 and bought a Roland Octa-Capture and the recorded steel tone was just like the MAudio. I later tried Some other Focusrite Scarlett units and the same high end "loss" as the Saffire. Ultimately I settled on MOTU units and they too have the same response as the MAudio and Roland Octa-Capture.

I agree about learning. I did every session. I also learned from "retired" Nashville songwriter and producer Jimmy Peppers who was a disciple of Billy Sherell. Peppers produced the last Mel Street album.

Larry Ball · From: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Thank You Gentlemen for your comments and recommendations. I have recorded a number of tracks different ways from Mic amp , DI connection, straight into the interface from the steel. I have found my Presonus Tube Channel strip allows me to tweak the EQ etc before I record rather than after the fact. This I find gives me the best result, however Tony mentioned the numbers for the EQ that produce the sound quality re: muddy and up so I am going check that closer. If I knew how to attach a couple of tracks that might help in listening to my sound quality.

I was thinking of changing the Interface that might give me some more answers. However I donâ€™t want to go down that â€œRabbit Holeâ€ yet.
_________________
Mullen SD10, Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, Wayne Brown “Custom Designed Amp”

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Larry the other issue is how are you monitoring ? This is a huge dilemma . Not all Near Fields produce the same responses and of course not all "cans" offer the same EQ profiles. We can easily get a false representation of whats being tracked. Just a few more things we need to get accustomed to. We need to "learn" our systems.

While I totally agree with the notion that an interface can and will give us varied EQ of the recorded track, my opinion, thats not where the Gold lies. The Gold is in the DAW EQ profiles. Many of us, me as well , for example, I use 3 or 4 different Interfaces/Preamps. Yes they each offer a somewhat different EQ profile to the DAW but its not "ALL FOR ONE" and equal.

The trick is learning how YOUR Interface responds and how to manage the EQ profiles embedded in the DAW. There are NO Interfaces that will provide you with what you are seeking. Especially cost effective interfaces that claim to have balanced FIXED preamps that cannot be adjusted. They are what they are. They are not bad, they just need to be "learned" . they are not an answer to you initial question. And yeah, some are better than others.

An interfaces job is to provide a RAW envelope, hopefully clean as can be. Interfaces that also have on board EQ or Parametric EQ can get you closer. But there is a reason every DAW and Stand-Alone workstation have a wide variety of EQ profiles available.

The other variable, which I call the lazy mans variable, is using the DAW embedded PRE SETS. I attempted to use those for years until I realized I was settling for a "FINAL SOUND" . PRE SETS are starting points, not FINAL POINTS.

One last comment , how fresh are your strings ? New strings sound totally different on a track than OLDER strings. I recall reading where Paul Franklin changes strings every week. While I personally do not change STEEL strings with each session, I do however change my Telecaster strings at least every two weeks. I can tell in a NY minute that the tones are changing,
on gigs and especially on a track. IF we are chasing the tone that we had yesterday, well, change the strings. This is a very important part of the equation. The starting point is the same.

The whole thing is an education that never ends. LOL Very Happy

_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Larry Ball · From: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Thank you Tony for your time and advice. I know all of you that have commented have experienced many different concepts and again I appreciate everything. This forum provides novice players like me the opportunity to learn from others experiences. I guess I am a â€œTone Junkieâ€ after playing six string for so many years. Yes I change strings often on the six stringers because I use a light gauge . On both my steels I use NYXL strings which I like, changing them as often as needed depending on gigâ€™s etc.

I once thought as you got older a person would relax and just except things easier. However the PSG as rekindled the desire to learn this great instrument and recording is a whole new world in itself.
_________________
Mullen SD10, Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, Wayne Brown “Custom Designed Amp”

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jim Fogle · From: North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA

Larry,

I'm glad you asked the question. There are some very knowledgeable people in this forum and they are always very gracious about sharing their knowledge. I've enjoyed reading the answers and have learned a few things.
_________________
Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Pedal Steel Player
Dell laptop Win 10, i3, 8GB, 480GB
2024 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab software & Zoom MRS-8 hardware DAWs
Zoom MRS-8 8 Track Hardware DAW

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

Lately Iâ€™ve been recording through a Strymon Iridium when doing remote recording and itâ€™s really been helpful. I use Logic Pro and while the amp sims are fine Iâ€™ve had way better results using this pedal. My wife works remotely in the next room over so an amp is out of the question right now.
The chain is Steel- vol pedal- Strymon- Preamp- Compressor- Apogee interface
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

At home I plug the DI outputs of my Telonics preamp into the line inputs of a Focusrite interface and monitor on my hi-fi.

This gives a clean sound with whatever basic effects I'm using. I can then add compression and extra reverb later in the DAW if necessary.

When I record the band I do the same with a larger Tascam interface with the same happy result. I suppose this works because the MXR reverb that lives with the preamp memorises the settings for each song.
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