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Topic: Universal E9/B6 setup |
Bob Case
From:
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2021 2:17 pm |
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| I'm setting up a 12 string in a universal E9/B6 tuning and notice that some of the manufacturers have the raise/lower E string changes on the right knee in their standard copedent. I've always had these changes on my left knee. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to putting these on one knee or the other? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 10 Jun 2021 4:52 pm
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I've always had my Eb lever on the RKR. The theory is because it's easier to hold the lever with the RKR. Also, this allows your left leg to be free to move across floor pedals and left knee levers while holding the Eb lever with your RKR. Some players still like the Emmons E9 knee lever setup, but it seems more awkward on a U-12 to me . To each his own.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Bob Case
From:
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2021 6:05 pm
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I'd be more inclined to put it on RKL, That's where the change is on my C6 and I've also played the E9 with that change there. Just looking for input here from you universal players.
Thanks
BC |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 10 Jun 2021 7:58 pm
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Either right knee is good.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Bob Case
From:
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2021 8:09 pm
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| Why right knee rather than left? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 10 Jun 2021 8:22 pm
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Holding the Eb lever with the right knee allows more freedom of movement with the left leg to play the B6th floor pedals and freedom to use the left kneelevers. It seems to me that holding an Eb lever with a left knee while moving the left foot around to use the B6th pedals would be restrictive. Doable, but not as fluent with movement. Also, you'll probably want the 5th string (B to Bb) on a left knee lever. I have mine on the left vertical knee.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 12:51 am
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Dennis is right in my view, but I know that there are many players who are so attached to LKR that they claim to cope with it. How they rock between 5 and 6 I have no idea, and no-one has come forward with a demo.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 5:31 am
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I put mine on RKL. The advantage here is you can have both feet on the B6 pedals when needed, while still lowering the E's. I made the decision to do this when I first got my UNI and had been watching videos of Emmons as well as Jernigan often using both feet on the C6 pedals -- it just seemed like the right way to go and I'm very happy I did that as I now take advantage of this 'feature' often.
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Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 5:58 am
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RKL to rock p.5 & p.6.
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 5:58 am
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Slim, good point.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 6:13 am
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I'd be interested to hear from players who have made the transition from Es on the left to right.
Is it a brutal learning curve?
Even on straight E9 it seems to make sense to split the Es, so that going from Es lowered to raised can be done more economically and faster.
And it certainly would free up the left foot as per the discussion here. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 6:27 am
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| It seems to me that holding an Eb lever with a left knee while moving the left foot around to use the B6th pedals would be restrictive. |
It seems to me that holding an Eb lever with a left knee while moving the left foot around to use the B6th pedals would be easy because your left leg has to move right to reach those pedals. |
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Jim Bloomfield
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 6:32 am
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| LKR works just fine for me. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 6:44 am
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Earnest, It's just more relaxing to me to have the freedom of foot movement without having to hold the LKR Eb lever. Plus, I like the Bb (5th string) lever on my vertical knee. Holding the LKR and pushing up to the vertical at the same time is not so relaxing. I'm constantly moving in and out of both tunings and having my Eb lever on the right side allows me to use the A and/or B pedal on some of the B6th. Hopping across the pedal rack while holding an Eb with the LKR is easy, but not as easy.
It adds to the pedal combinations to have the Eb on the Right knee.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 7:53 am
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I have always played the Jeff Newman ABC style Uni with E lowers on RKR. His 7x4 S12U didn't have a LKR at all.
Bob, Are you saying you have a S12U at your house and you are re-configuring it (what Brand/Model)?... Or are you putting together a Copedant in preperation to Order an S12U? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 8:08 am
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| Andrew Frost wrote: |
I'd be interested to hear from players who have made the transition from Es on the left to right.
Is it a brutal learning curve? |
I had been lowering Es on LKR for about 20 years when I changed it to RKL. After a few months it became automatic most of the time. It was hardest on things that I'd memorized, and easiest when improvising. Even years later I'd screw up on memorized instrumentals that I hadn't played recently.
I don't regret making change at all. I often use the F lever position, and having the E lowers on the other knee produces a smooth full-step change that I use a lot. I'm not a U-12 player, but I see the advantages there as well. Go for it.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 8:21 am
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My U-12 has the E lower on RKL, and there's never been a problem holding it in and working the VP. LKR does, however, get in the way a little when I access "the power of the B6 side". 
Last edited by Dave Hopping on 11 Jun 2021 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Case
From:
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 8:22 am
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Pete - I have Mullen U12 in a D13 tuning. I want to go to E9/B6 because I can't get used to having the 6th tone in the middle of my E9 (D9) grips for the top two triads. Playing in open D is also a bit of a challenge, but I'm ok with that.
I appreciate all the advice in this thread - thank you |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 8:37 am
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| Bob Case wrote: |
Pete - I have Mullen U12 in a D13 tuning. I want to go to E9/B6 because I can't get used to having the 6th tone in the middle of my E9 (D9) grips for the top two triads. Playing in open D is also a bit of a challenge, but I'm ok with that.
I appreciate all the advice in this thread - thank you |
Oh yeah that is the tuning with a C# string between the E and B, right? Oy.
That would mess me up too!
How did you end up with a D13th?
Maybe just sell it to a D13th player? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 9:41 am
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I changed my 2nd string from open D# to C# about 20 years ago. This gives me the same open tuning as having the D (9th note) on top of a C6th tuning. The C# gives me the 9th note on B6th and a 6th note in E9th tuning. However, with the F# as the first string, I also have the same as the traditional G (5th note) on top of the C6th tuning. Best of both worlds.
I raise the C# to D/D# and the 9th string (B) to D with the LKL lever....basically taking me back to the standard E9th tuning. Lots of uses for this configuration when pedaling in and out of it.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 11:16 am
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Here's my copedent. Maurice Anderson set up my MSA this way in 1982. Guitar long gone but I've stuck with the copedent for the most part. I too like my E lower RKL. |
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Bob Case
From:
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2021 1:56 pm
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Dennis - can you show me your copedent?
Thanks
Bob |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2021 7:57 am
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Bob, I would recommend putting a S12U set of strings on it, and tune it to standard E9/B6.
Change as few things as possible to get a general E9/B6 tuning.
Play it that way for a while and see how it goes. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 12 Jun 2021 8:24 am
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If you're playing the E's on the left and find that setup satisfactory, I don't see any reason to change. Every setup has it's advantages and disadvantages. One way is not better, just different and I know you'll get a ton of suggestions.
I have played Universal 12s and 14s off and on since the 90s but not presently.
FWIW, my E9/B6 is the Sierra set up with the E lowers and lok on LKR. My one modification of the Sierra setup is to move the common pedal 8 to the 4 position.
I'm a huge Jeff fan and disciple and tried the Newman arrangement with E lower on the right knee, but I didn't like holding it in for B6 on top of the volume pedal.
Holding the LKR in, which puts your left leg towards the right side of the guitar, still let me reach all the pedals just fine. Some pedal height adjustments may be necessary, but really it's not that big a deal. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 12 Jun 2021 9:38 am
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I don't know how to do a copedent chart on the website. I'd have to put it on paper, take a photo and attach it. Verbally:
LKL raises #2 C# to D/D# and #9 B to D.
LKV lowers #5 B to Bb
LKR lowers 6 and 10 G# to F#
RKR lowers #4 and #8 E to Eb
RKL raises #4 and #8 E to F
Pedals: A, B, C are standard
Pedal #4 is the boo-wah raises #9 B to C, lowers #11 E to Eb and lowers #12 B to G#
Pedal #5 lowers #7 F# to F, raises # 11 E to F and raises #12 B to C#
Pedal #6 is the split
Pedal #7 raises #5 B to C# and raises #6 G# to A#.
This started out with the original standard Newman setup until I added the LKR and tuned #2 to C#
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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