Question about slide bar diameter..

Paul Leoni · From: Mississippi, USA

And the question is, How bigga' bar are ya?
(Roy T Mercer reference)

But seriously what is the largest diameter bar you can use that does not start "sitar-ing"
I have a great reason for asking this, not to do with the bar.

String contact geometry actually. I know that at some point you will run into the bar contacting the strings on too broad of an area leading to buzzing.

This is actually how the Dan Electro Sitar made that cool sound on the intro to BJ Thomas's "Hooked on a Feeling"

We don't want that on a steel. (-:

Paul Leoni · From: Mississippi, USA

Has anyone used a 1.5" bar?

.

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

I have a couple 1 inch bars. If you search Youtube you might find the video of Jeff Newman clowning on stage making the pros use a tailpipe size chrome bar. I know there is a few photos of it on this forum long ago.

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Paul Leoni · From: Mississippi, USA

Paul Leoni · From: Mississippi, USA

Seriously though, at some point the radius of the bar is going to cause string buzz. I would like to know the radius that that buzz begins to be an issue.

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

The late Sneaky Pete Kleinow used a large diameter bar to play all the time. It was very noticeable, and not just 1" or 1 1/8", but maybe 1 1/2" to 2" - not sure. One of the people here on the forum, Jim Sliff I believe, knows a lot about Pete, his tuning, and his tone bar. While the bar was rather large, he had great tone, and it wasn't sitar sounding or buzzing at all. For example, look up Linda Ronstadt Live at the Palomino singing "I Fall to Pieces." That's Sneaky Pete. Here are a couple of pictures showing his large tone bar:

The Linda Ronstadt song I mentioned, and one more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIC6cGtPUEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEmSeXTxnoM
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Steeless.

Paul Leoni · From: Mississippi, USA

Soooo a 1.5 to 2.0 inch radius should not adversely contact the string. BTW whoever mixed those two songs should be shot. But the tone of the steel is fine.

Charley Bond · From: Inola, OK, USA

I had a slide Bar at 1.25 Diameter x 4 long, it was counter bored .625 I.D. x 3.5. I should have kept it, but that was 10-12n years ago when I quit. Now I'm playing with a White Bar & loving it. Somebody really ought to get that going again.
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Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I have bars from 9/16" all the way up to 1 1/4", but settled on a standard 3/4" bar. For me, the bigger ones offer little or no meaningful advantages. In fact they can be detrimental a lot of the time. In the grand scheme of things, bars are probably one of the least important factors in getting a good sound. Winking

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

I guess all this is really about how big the changer finger radius can be?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

I would imagine that practically everything discussed in this topic has been tried at one time or the other by more than one company since the advent of the modern pedal steel guitar. Some builders use polished stainless steel changer fingers already (GFI Ultra & Expo, and Justice, and maybe others), while some use aluminum. There are various scale lengths. All pull, push/pull, and pull/release mechanisms are out there. Short key heads, long key heads. Aluminum frames, and all wooden cabinets with aluminum end plates. Wooden decks, and die board decks. It takes a lot of parts to build even the most economical pedal steel, and a lot of time to build it (the builders have to make a living too).

I'm all in favor of innovation and the competitive spirit in the pedal steel world. If I was set-in-my-ways I'd have an old 60's model Sho-Bud, but I'm not. I have a GFI S-10 Expo. The build of the GFI is, at least in my opinion, one of the most progressive or modern designs out there right now. While the operating principals are the same as any all-pull pedal steel, the materials used and overall design are rather modern.

There are already some relatively inexpensive "beginner" or entry level models out there, such as the Stage One, Encore, Justice Jr. and Jimmie Hudson's new entry level pedal steel.

The Stage One and Encore get very high marks, and that was my original choice when I got back into pedal steel last year - however, the wait is very long (like 8 months + or -) unless you can find a good used one. I also considered an S-10 BMI, but the wait is 8-9 months. I'm not getting any younger, so I found a great deal on a BMI SD-10 3/4 body, which I ended up restoring and I sold it (too heavy for me). I ended up with the GFI S-10 Expo, and I'm completely satisfied with it.

In short, there are already a number of excellent options open to someone just getting into pedal steel, plus good deals on used ones. I fear the Paul may be trying to reinvent the wheel.

Whatever Paul is trying to develop, I wish him all the best. He might surprise us too.
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Steeless.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I have one of Sneaky's two tapered 1 1/4 - 1 1/8"x 3 1/2" long bars (the other. is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Country Rock section along with his steel)

They don't sound buzzy at all. It takes some time to get used to the visual perspective, but most players who get used to large bars never switch back - 5/8 and 3/4" bars feel like holding a pencil!

Basil makes my signature Ezzee-Slide bar in that size & taper with an outer synthetic polymer and inner core of copper - The lower weight makes it a little easier to play than the "Sneaky" original. It's also just about indestructible - I've dropped it on asphalt, concrete, it's bounced down stairs...not a mark on it after about 5 years!

The usual problem with larger diameter steel saddles is when they wear a microscopic groove over time - and THAT will cause sitar sounds. That's usually an issue with the alloy being too soft.

But a large bar is no problem. Greg Leisz and several other "name" players have used my "Sneaky original". Ed Beirly had a copy made, and Baz has sold a bunch of his Ezzee-Slide bars in that size with, as far as I'm aware, zero "sitar" complaints.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Paul Leoni · From: Mississippi, USA

"Whatever Paul is trying to develop, I wish him all the best. He might surprise us too."

Thank you for that. I do see some things that can be improved dramatically. The changer itself (at least the pull release variety) seems fully developed. What is needed is streamlining. I also see lot of crazy bells and whistles that serve to intimidate a beginning steel player.

As I said, yes I may fail, but I have succeeded before in other fields when "they" said it couldn't be done. A search of alt.rec.recording would probably yield some rather "heated" discussions on the feasibility of digital recording vs. tape using PCs and a few other areas too.

I *do* see a hole here. I see a hole large enough to fly a 747 through ....now whether I can fill it before I croak is another thing entirely, but you can bet I will try. .

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

Paul - Remember - "Can't" never did nothing.
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Steeless.

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