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Topic: String length and intonation... |
Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 6:13 am |
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Suppose I made a changer that directly pulled the string, right at the eye the string went through. No bridge. In effect the eye becomes the bridge. Obviously this means the pulled strings would wind up slightly longer (or shorter) than the un-pulled strings at time of raise. There will obviously be intonation issues Question is, how will this scale as I move the bar higher up the neck, and just how crazy would the intonation get?
This is a hypothetical question for reasons of research. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 7:03 am
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| The Anapeg PSG has a linear changer, there's a diagram of it on THIS PAGE |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 7:47 am
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Thanks Richard. What I am up to is a total simplification of the changer mechanism with the least "intonational" artifact. The truth is we have always lived with such artifacts. What is needed and what I intend to produce is an entry / "doubler" level inexpensive, rugged and above all simple. We have "elitested" ourselves out of the market. It's so cool to be elite. Until you are the last shiny elite guy left and your instrument is so esoteric, complicated and expensive that you do not see in a music store. Few kids start, no music produced and you have to throw your own parties to hear it.
This must be fixed. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 7:48 am
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Changers that lengthen the string when raising, and shorten it when lowering, would also include Excel and the new Sierra. I think the Jackson "Edge" changer also lengthens the string when raising, but does not shorten it when lowering.
Obviously, if one string is made longer at the changer, and you put the bar exactly at the 12th fret, you are at the middle of most strings, but below middle of the longer string. So the longer string will be flat relative to the other strings.
I worked the numbers a few years ago and concluded that intervals will be off by several cents when you play at, say fret 15 and above, which would not sound good to me. The weakest point in my calcs was a very crude assumption of how much longer the raised string is. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 8:00 am
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| I'll not forget the article by Winnie Winston in the Northeast Pedal Steel Guitar Association newsletter about the Anapeg when he said something like "One would think that the changer design would lead to intonation problems but Tom Brumley- who has ears like a bat- doesn't seem to think so." |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 9:23 am
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I can’t offer anything on the technical aspect of the topic, but philosophically and financially speaking, top level brand new pedal steels are right in the middle of the pack with premium guitars (acoustic and electric), keyboards, and probably many other instruments. A lap steel could be considered “entry level†(no offense to the many gifted non-pedal players right here on the forum) to the world of pedal steel, and they are priced very competitively with other instruments. A beginner on a budget can be coached into making a sensible first purchase.
Interesting comment about intonation above the 15th fret. I mentioned in a thread somewhere that my bass strings and my chords sound like crap past the 12th fret no matter what tuning method I’ve tried. One wise responder said “it’s a different instrument above the 12th fretâ€. Ever since then I have paid much closer attention to what good players do between 12 and 24. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 9:34 am
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I have an Excel and a Williams. On both the string length does change but the amount is negligible.
It's a valid concern in theory, but not in practice.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 9:59 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
I have an Excel and a Williams. On both the string length does change but the amount is negligible.
It's a valid concern in theory, but not in practice. |
Ditto on the new Sierra. In fact, I didn't realize that the string length changed until Earnest mentioned it (above). The movement is very small, and is not an audible problem. To see it, I put my fingernail on a string winding just over a fret marker and pressed the pedal. Yes, it moves, but it's only about 1/10 the width of a fret line, which would make a difference of less than 1 cent even at the high frets. That's nothing compared to typical tuning problems like cabinet drop, hysteresis, and bar weight.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 10:18 am
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I respectfully disagree about pricing.
A great Strat these days $100. Ditto Tele. (Maybe a bit more)
It's kinda sad really to see the great American instrument decline because, well you know. The truth is with a good setup and a *maybe* couple of dollars of parts you have a hell of a starter instrument and to be honest? Yes a gigging instrument.
Yes, we do need to see a revolution. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 10:19 am
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| Point is, kids will pick up a good guitar for a song and never get exposed to the magnificent steel guitar. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 10:35 am
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| So....the consensus is that directly pulling on the string (not rolling it over a radius like most guitars work) will not significantly affect intonation parallel to unpulled strings, which will obviously stay the same length? That there are successful designs now that employ just this methodology? |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 11:29 am
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| Quote: |
| So....the consensus is that directly pulling on the string (not rolling it over a radius like most guitars work) will not significantly affect intonation parallel to unpulled strings, which will obviously stay the same length? That there are successful designs now that employ just this methodology? |
Clearly, yes. There are lots of issues with intonation, especially in the higher registers, I don't think adding one tiny additional one is gonna make that much difference. One also has to consider design aspects that minimize those other issues also, and I believe that is one of the hard parts of making these things 'cheap'. If you make a cheap pedal steel out of cheap wood or whatever else you have in mind without a lot of thought about how the whole thing works together, I think it will undermine the performance.
| Quote: |
| A great Strat these days $100. Ditto Tele. (Maybe a bit more) |
Respectfully disagree there. MAP on a new Mexican-made Fender Player Strat (which I believe superseded the Mexican-made Standard Strat) is $750. I'd call this a good, serviceable Strat, not a "great" Strat. There are alternatives less expensive, but at every price point below, something else gets cheapened. And without the Fender logo, one can do a bit better. But a 'great' new Strat, IMO, is pretty pricey these days. Of course, there are used alternatives too. But there are also good and significantly less expensive alternatives for a pedal steel also.
I've said this before - in terms of the cost of manufacture, I think comparing a Strat/Tele to a pedal steel is absurd. It is much more reasonable to compare electric guitars and lap steels. A 'new lap steel' can be frequently had for about $80 - the Rogues are frequently on sale for that. They are not 'great', I'd say not even 'good', but they are enough for a kid to start on. Rondo Music offers some decent lap/console steels (6 and 8 string) for a couple hundred or so. Like most electric guitars in that type of price range, they can all use some upgrades. But there are lots of threads here on these. And there are professional grade lap steels in the $500 range. And lots of vintage lap steels are pretty reasonable too.
Seriously - if you or anybody else has ideas about how to make a solid starter pedal steel for a couple hundred bucks, I think you should just do it. If they're really good, I think you'll sell a bunch even with a real simple setup. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 11:39 am
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I don't see a lap steel as a viable entry level pedal steel. As one who just learned (Ha! is learning) both, I see two separate instruments there with a different emotional character. A kid in a music store is going go
"Oooh slide guitar" yuck imo probably not Western Swing (yay!)
Pedal steel a different animal and decidedly not (so far) accessible to very many. You can deny the truth, but you you can't deny the consequences of denying the truth. 70 is median age. There is a poll running about this. One category left out is "deceased" Probably the real winner because it's so hard to vote.
Or is it? (-: |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 11:52 am
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| Quote: |
| You can deny the truth, but you you can't deny the consequences of denying the truth. 70 is median age. There is a poll running about this. |
What truth? The poll is a totally non-scientific sample of steel guitar forum members who I believe are well known, as a group, to be significantly older than the average age of the full universe of pedal steel players. There are lots of younger pedal steel players not on this forum, or at least not actively participating.
A lap/console steel is not a starter pedal steel guitar, it is a starter steel guitar. Both non-pedal and pedal steel guitars are steel guitars, and the most critical skills apply to both. IMO, anybody really serious about steel guitar is well advised to just get some type of steel and start practicing. IMHO.
But seriously - I don't think anybody here is opposed to the idea of someone putting out a quality but very inexpensive pedal steel. Go for it if you think you have some good ideas. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 12:16 pm
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I do have some good ideas. And best of all a track record of successfully "bucking the system" A lot to think about. For anyone following this re starter guitars, the Firefly Tele, Strat, LP and 335s beat the pants of the Squires etc. Their "338" is close to an actual Gibson 335 than most Squires are to Fenders.
Comparison?
Only that less expensive instruments keep things alive |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 2:37 pm
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Top of the line Paul Reed Smith:....$4810 (Moore Guitars)
Top of the line Kurzweil Forte 88....$4999 (Sweetwater)
Williams 700 U12 Pedal Steel........$4095 (Williams website)
As far as less expensive PSG’s, I would say Doug Earnest and Fred Justice have done a lot toward keeping the quality as high as possible for a player on a tighter budget.
Elitist...We don’t call a cabinetmaker with a CNC routing system an elitist, we call him smart for using the best tool for the job. Does that shiny new pickup truck make you an elitist? No, it gets you to work on time even with a full load in the bed.
I’m all for quality innovation, whether it’s for faster internet or a better chainsaw or a pedal steel guitar that stays in tune and plays like butter. Good luck with your project, Paul. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 3:16 pm
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"Top of the line" Show piece, collector guitars. You can pay whatever you like for a guitar these days. Then in reality and in a blind test playing ***and feeling*** each one the difference is minimal at best. All about setup. I have a lot of guitars including 40s Gibson archtops. I do play them onstage occasionally. Sure wish I could possibly set one up to play like my more modern neck Washburn Arch.
It all becomes a silly session. When I was a little boy my mother showed me a zircon and a diamond set in identical settings. She asked me "Which one is better Pete" I said "They are both the same Mama! She said yes Pete and you never forget that because there are people silly enough to believe this one (The diamond) is worth more
Actually this serves as an ideal illustration of my broader point about elitism. Function first.I do love the age behind the old Gibsons...but.... I haven't forgotten Mama |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2021 9:00 pm
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A market the size of "pedal steel beginners" can never reach economy of scale. Ever notice that there are no pedal steels made in China, and that their lap steels are using the same parts as crappy electric guitars? It's because there's not a big enough market to tool up for much more than a change in body shape and a printed fretboard.
Some pedal steel parts can come from a hardware store. An inventive mind can repurpose bicycle, marine, or aircraft parts for the undercarriage. But the changer is something that must be designed uniquely and manufactured precisely. I'm afraid that you're never going to reach the point where changer parts are being turned out in the quantities needed to bring down the price.
As for the idea of pulling the string directly from it's ball end without a bridge, I just can't wrap my head around it. I don't believe that strings are wrapped around that ball precisely enough to get it to work well. Make a prototype that proves me wrong!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2021 4:49 am
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Prototype in production.
8 string parts widely Chi-vailable.
Economy of scale achieved via economy of parts.
Stand by, I may fail yet.
I failed with all 3 marriages while doing this stuff (-:
But they all had the same name "Plaintiff" |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 29 Jun 2021 4:04 pm
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For the sake of accuracy, I looked again at my Williams, and I was wrong - it does not do like the Excel. I was fooled by the finger design, which uses a conventional axle but bends the string by only about 30° compared to the conventional 90
Sorry for any distress I may have caused. No guitars were hurt during the making of this apology.
P.S. b0b is right about string suspension. The nut and the bridge are the essential fulcra that let the string vibrate cleanly by defining its length precisely. A ball end is an anchoring device only, as is a tuning peg.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2021 8:42 am
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| Oh, I don't intend to leave the twist or wrap exposed |
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