| Will this copedent work well in practice? |
| Yes |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Maybe, there could be playability problems |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Maybe, there could be mechanical problems |
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10% |
[ 1 ] |
| No, this is too difficult to learn or adopt |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| I'm not interested. E9 or C6 is all I need |
|
90% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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| Author |
Topic: E Harmonic Minor Copedent |
Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 27 May 2021 1:28 am |
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Is the following copedent for E Harmonic Minor likely to produce any mechanical issues? I have tested only the open string tuning differences using a standard E9 pedal setup.
There are very many benefits to this setup:
1. This gives you 4 primary ways of playing a major chord
2. This gives you 3 primary ways of playing a minor chord
2. This gives you 3 primary ways of playing a diminished chord
3. All chords in a major key can be played within a few frets of each other
4. All chords in a harmonic minor key can be played within a few frets of each other
5. Chord upper structures are better supported (7ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths and their variants)
6. Harmonic minor scale runs can be played fast and easily
7. Melodic minor scale runs can be played fast and easily
8. Major scale runs can be played faster, more easily and with longer spans than on E9
9. All chromatic notes can be played rapid fire without moving the bar or at most moving it one fret
The drawbacks I can think of are that the AB pedal stomp no longer gives you that familiar I to IV chord change and also that full dominant 7th chords are no longer possible to play so you may not sound as "bluesy".
However, you can play the 7th instead of the root. That is very common in Jazz. So I suppose while the E9 might be preferable if you are working mostly with I-IV-V type progressions, the harmonic minor copedent is so much more useful for more sophisticated songs (and certainly for Jazz or Classical Music).
Last edited by Steve Sycamore on 27 May 2021 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 May 2021 8:02 am
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That looks very interesting. What I would like to look at is exactly what you cannot play currently with your E9 tuning. Nothing conceptual, just the notes or phrases that are currently not available to you with the standard tuning.
_________________
Bob |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 27 May 2021 8:10 am
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One thing I can think of right away is that playing double stops has to be re-learned. For example, the kind of walk up the major scale in thirds that we are used to doing using no pedals plus the A and B pedals is not available in the same way as on E9. The pattern has to be mapped out in this copedent to do something similar.
I'll post some chord charts for the major and harmonic minor keys to get started with this when I get a chance.
Two things that are difficult or impossible in E9 I believe are playing a Minor Major 7th chord (which is the I chord in a harmonic minor key) and playing a chromatic run longer than 5 notes quickly and easily without hopping the bar all over the fretboard in E9.
Another thing that is difficult to impossible in E9 is playing a II-V-I comp where you substitute upper structure chords that really make you sound professional. Cmaj7-Cdim7-Dmaj13 for example over a II-V-I in G major for example. I'll post some tab later when I have some time. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 May 2021 8:55 am
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An F#<G lever on standard E9 could change your world, if you could add a lever.
E lower + F#<G = Minor maj7 strings 1-4-5-6 (or 1-2-5-6, no E lower)
The grip is weird, but there is also a Minor maj7 on strings 8-7-5-2 with the F#<G raise.
AB+E raise= Minor maj7 strings 4-5-6-7 (No F#<G raise)
Lots of chromatics open up with that half step raise on F# too. I have it on LKV. It is a little awkward at first, using it without having your foot anchored on a pedal, but if a tinhorn like me can get used to it, anybody can.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 27 May 2021 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nikolai Shveitser
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 27 May 2021 9:48 am
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I think there's a full dom7 chord in your copedent- with the B pedal looks like you get a full B7 chord.  |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 27 May 2021 11:51 am
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| Good catch about the B7 chord and that includes yet another way to play a major triad. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 May 2021 2:09 pm
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One nice thing about your tuning is that it is basically symmetrical - the same 5 notes are in the upper and lower registers an octave apart. That makes it easier to look at, and one less way to hit a clinker string. I think it could work both musically and mechanically.
I really think you are selling Standard E9 short with some of your comments though. The copedent is associated with a fairly simple pop music form, but I believe it has been proven to be extremely versatile.
Full harmonic minor scales are within two frets, in both pedals up and pedals down positions. I-IV-V progressions are also vi7-ii7-iii7 progressions with a different bass note.. I play ii7b5-V7alt-Im all the time on Latin and Jazz tunes. Major7, minor7, diminished7, augmented chords are easily accessed, and you hear the great players using them all the time as passing tones in “unsophisticated†music. Quartal harmonies for more modern jazz sounds are everywhere on an E9 copedent. I’m surprised there isn’t more jazz being played on it.
Sorry, didn’t mean to go off on a rant. You obviously have put a lot of thought into your experiment, and all that’s left now is for you to put it to the test and see if it works for you. Good luck.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 27 May 2021 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 May 2021 2:22 pm
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Lowering the 4th string E to D is a very long pull. Some guitars can't do it.
A half-step in the low register can cause some dissonant resonance. I'd figure out a different way to get that D#, make B the 9th string, and add a low G. It will expand the range of the guitar. Or, at a minimum, tune the 9th string to D.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 27 May 2021 2:31 pm
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Thanks for the observations Fred and Bob. Yes, I think I would only attempt this on a spare guitar and it was originally started as a pure experiment that landed some intriguing initial results. Both E9 and C6 are really wonderful and have their own strengths. So I'm trying this out as an alternative not really as a replacement.
I'll try out the modification on the 4th string first to see how well that works as you point out Bob. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 May 2021 2:43 pm
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
Two things that are difficult or impossible in E9 I believe are playing a Minor Major 7th chord (which is the I chord in a harmonic minor key) and playing a chromatic run longer than 5 notes quickly and easily without hopping the bar all over the fretboard in E9. |
That's the ABF position played over the 9th string D as root. A lot of different chord positions are available with the 9th string as root.
| Tab: |
FmMaj7
1 _____________
2 _____________
3 _____________
4 E_____________
5 B ___3A_______ Maj7
6 G#___3B_______ 5th
7 F#____________
8 E ___3F_______ minor 3rd
9 D ___3________ root
10 B ____________
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As for chromatic runs, most modern E9th configurations are fully chromatic at every fret. I must have misunderstood what you meant.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 28 May 2021 12:01 am
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That looks like a good way to play EmM7 on the E9 neck. So the question is then how do you use that as a base for musical excursions in the E harmonic and melodic keys. I propose we do some studies on how to play chord sequences and melodic lines in both tunings and maybe C6 as well.
As a start maybe pulling some lines from the Aebersold Jazz training material for major and minor II-V-I's and generating tab from his scores would be revealing.
To solve the low D# problem, maybe choosing some other chord than E9 or EmM9 for the open string tuning would give good results. I'll ponder that. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 30 May 2021 8:57 am
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| if you think in terms of triads (assuming you have a good grasp of the concept)the harmonic minor chords and scales can be played easily on a standard E9 tuning with 3 pedals and 4 levers. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 May 2021 11:34 am
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
That looks like a good way to play EmM7 on the E9 neck. So the question is then how do you use that as a base for musical excursions in the E harmonic and melodic keys. I propose we do some studies on how to play chord sequences and melodic lines in both tunings and maybe C6 as well.
As a start maybe pulling some lines from the Aebersold Jazz training material for major and minor II-V-I's and generating tab from his scores would be revealing.
To solve the low D# problem, maybe choosing some other chord than E9 or EmM9 for the open string tuning would give good results. I'll ponder that. |
Applying Abersold or any other jazz training methodologies to pedal steel would be a life’s work.
It has been said that pedal steel, from an improvisational viewpoint, is more of an intervallic/triadic machine than a linear scale one. A two-octave harmonic minor scale might lay out very nicely in one or two positions, but pretty crummily elsewhere, especially when attempting all 7 modes. There are, very often it seems, at least two useable strings on any fret at a given point in the scale though.
A fast one-octave staccato chromatic line is probably not going to happen.You are going to have to move the bar at some point, and find a cluster of 4 or 5 strings in a two or three fret area that fill the need at the particular moment.
I wonder if more experienced players think tunings and copedents with a fair degree of comprehensiveness in the intervallic relationships amongst the 10 or 12 string setup actually make much difference in regard to these kinds of complexities.
Steve, you are probably aware that a great deal of classic jazz has already been done on pedal steel by the great players whose names we all know here, mostly on C6 and Universal copedents. You may also know there are some contemporary players worth a listen who are currently taking the instrument into uncharted territory. It may have seen its Country popularity somewhat diminished now, but it is kind of an exciting time for PSG. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 30 May 2021 10:27 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Applying Abersold or any other jazz training methodologies to pedal steel would be a life’s work. |
That's for sure. But it's a pity that there doesn't seem to be any material on the net heading that direction. A few crucial things pulled from there would make a big difference, such as a simple methodology for playing just a few common upper structure comp patterns.
I agree that long purely chromatic lines are hardly feasible to play. But 3 or 4 chromatic notes together is important to be able to do, especially across the 6th and 7th scale degrees. And neither are long scalar runs often needed but being able to grab a piece of a scale that can be played readily makes so much difference when improvising. Moving the bar a good part of the time to me feels great. But you need to be able to grab enough of the notes you want to target in the process. Economy is crucial in getting a good level of agility.
There are some really great C6 jazz renditions as you say. The problem is that no really good and methodically thorough material seems to be available. Above all, it's the agility factor in either E9 or C6 that limits what we can do I believe. Practice, even immense practice, will not get you where I think we should ultimately go. The copedents absolutely need to be rethought to get to the point where playing the types of things players of other instruments can play with ease start to roll off our fingers in my opinion. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 May 2021 11:52 pm
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| Steve Sycamore wrote: |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
Applying Abersold or any other jazz training methodologies to pedal steel would be a life’s work. |
That's for sure. But it's a pity that there doesn't seem to be any material on the net heading that direction. A few crucial things pulled from there would make a big difference, such as a simple methodology for playing just a few common upper structure comp patterns. |
I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen. What I have done, is downloaded this app https://steelsidekick.com/ and started using it with the Ted Greene guitar books on single-note jazz, which are similarly thorough in scope to the Abersold material, if not much more so. Having an interactive note map with my copedent loaded into it is pure gold.
I think one reason the methodology you seek is not readily available is because of the way the first generation masters learned - starting on non-pedal instruments - and the fact that they had to stay busy in the studio or on the road in order to pay bills. If they were teaching, lessons were directed at how to physically play this new contraption, rather than focusing on how to adapt it to specific musical styles - at least nothing stylistic beyond what pedal steel was becoming widely known for.
There is probably some of the stuff you’re looking for in the Paul Franklin course.
I also try to keep in mind that while other instruments may be able to do things a pedal steel can’t readily do, there are also a few things that no other instrument can do, and those things are relatively easy to demonstrate.
When you watch Buddy Emmons videos where talks about how he plays C6 jazz, he may seem a little coy, but I don’t believe he is being deliberately mysterious. There’s only so much that can be said about it. The rest is about watching, listening, studying, and playing. He gives us the springboard and leaves it to us to make the jump.
I don’t expect to get close to that kind of technique, I’m too old and I’m going to run out of time. But the information for developing all sorts of musical ideas and applying them to the steel guitar is out there. For now, I think we’re on our own for putting all the pieces together. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 31 May 2021 7:22 am
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| Innovation in this instance is really just to make things easier. The absurdity of the pursuit of easier ends with a device implanted in your head. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 31 May 2021 7:54 am
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If some one asks me to play a Minor Major 7th chord on my E9 neck. I'll just pack up my sht and leave, who needs all this harassing.  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 May 2021 7:55 am
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| Innovation in this instance is really just to make things easier. The absurdity of the pursuit of easier ends with a device implanted in your head. |
Not that a slacker like me necessarily subscribes to it, but I’m reminded of the Teddy Roosevelt quote:
Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2021 10:10 am
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Chromatic runs are not difficult on one fret if half-tone slurs are permitted. The question becomes, where do the slurs make musical sense? Consider this descending run covering the full range of the guitar:
| Tab: |
F#_________3G--3_____________________________________
D#_______________________3-3D________________________
G#__3B--3____________________________________________
E ________________3F--3______________________________
B _____________________________3A--3AX__3--3X________
G#_____________________________________________3B--3_
F#___________________________________________________
E ___________________________________________________
D ___________________________________________________
B ___________________________________________________
F#___________________________________________________
D#___________________________________________________
G#___________________________________________________
E ___________________________________________________
B ___________________________________________________
G#__3B--3__3BG--3G___________________________________
F#_________(or)_3G--3________________________________
E _____________________3F--3__3--3E__________________
D ___________________________________3_______________
B ______________________________________3A--3AX__3___
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If you learn these patterns forwards and backwards, you can use any portion of them at any fret when you need a chromatic run.
And if you don't want any musical slurs in your phrasing, you should be playing a different instrument! 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2021 10:18 am
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Some people use a "G" lever that lowers the middle G# a full step and combine it with the "B" pedal. Others use a lever to raise the middle F# to G. Both approaches generate the chromatic G note.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2021 11:19 am Back to the question at hand
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<center></center>
I think it's important to note that the almost-standard LKV "X" lever combines with the standard "A" pedal to make a C note on the 5th and 10th strings. A lot of people lower both G# strings to G on a "zero pedal", to the left of "A".
U-12 players remove the 9th string entirely, relying on the E string to get the D# and D notes. This frees up the 10th string to be low G#, providing a better foundation for jazz chords.
I'm not sure what limitations your guitar has, but I submit that the following will give you everything you need without straying far from established norms.
<center> </center>
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 31 May 2021 11:22 am
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| b0b! Not difficult: I’m seeing senior freeze up all over that tab! |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 31 May 2021 11:27 am
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| No Stuart, slurs and half slurs come easy for seniors |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 31 May 2021 11:34 am
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| b0b we are not making fun of your charts or tab. Those are very informative. I'm older than dirt so I can make fun of me and others at this same stage of life! |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 31 May 2021 12:38 pm
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| Interesting Bob, thanks. The guitar I'm using to experiment with does have a vertical "G" knee lever. But I've found it quite awkward to use and I don't think it works in conjunction with the A and B pedals. But I'll probably give it some new tries. At best though that would only temporarily keep me from looking for another tuning system. |
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