| Author |
Topic: Raise finger assist springs help please |
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2021 10:14 am |
|
If you have a guitar with these installed please post pics or email them to me. I need ideas.
...especially if you have them on a PP...,
Thank you!!
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
|
|
 |
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 27 May 2021 1:16 pm
|
|
Marty I would think on a push pull you just adjust the return spring so it exerts less force on a the raise finger?
I'm no PP expert but it seems there is no need for raise helpers. |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 27 May 2021 2:00 pm
|
|
My (new to me) pp 12 string pulls 3 strings on the B pedal. The 3rd string seems to be the heaviest load and the longest pull. I put a raise helper spring on it as per photos I've seen. It does give some power assist. I have some foot problems that make this a plus.
I haven't gained the confidence yet to take this guitar out of the house but right now my feeling is that the B pedal is a bit too hair-trigger. With the length of the throw, it is hard to find pedal heights for A B & C that don't require fairly extreme (for my feet & ankles) flex to avoid inadvertent pedal activation. In time, I may ditch the helper and opt for a heavier feel in order to buy myself some 'forgiveness' for my unwilling feet.
As to the return springs, after I lightened their tension, I just wasn't getting solid and positive return. It is not impossible that the changer could use a flushing. There might be some sludge that, with its removal, would allow for lighter return spring tension. |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 27 May 2021 3:01 pm
|
|
| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| Marty I would think on a push pull you just adjust the return spring so it exerts less force on a the raise finger?... |
Nope, raises function independently from lowers on a PP. The return spring tension needs to be greater than the string tension pulling the other direction to hold the lowering fingers tight against the body, enough tension to pull the raise finger back to neutral reliably when releasing a lower. This only affects the feel of the lowers.
If you want to try adding a raise helper on a PP you can attach a spring on the bottom (raise) side of a bell crank on the pedal or lever shaft you want to "assist", anchor it to a bracket or something downstream and adjust tension to allow proper movement of the finger in both directions. Takes just a little trial and error. Like Jon my string 10 is G#, so three pulls on my B pedal (3rd pedal in the pic). This is the only place I have one and its effect is fairly modest but definitely noticeable. It would probably be too much if I lowered any of the G#s (like with a Franklin change) but I don't.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 27 May 2021 3:27 pm
|
|
| Ian Worley wrote: |
This only affects the feel of the lowers. |
Oof....yeah I knew this. I was trying to lighten the load on a couple of lowers and found a limit to how much tension I could take off the springs.
I confused that with the subject at hand here. |
|
|
|
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
|
Posted 27 May 2021 4:02 pm
|
|
Ian,
Thank you for your post and pic. I was thinking about trying that very concept. I have some springs that I brought on this run so I may try it tomorrow while we’re usually sitting around. The feel is tolerable but I’d like to see how much I could influence the feel without causing problems.
Thanks again!!
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 27 May 2021 10:39 pm
|
|
Helper springs on a push-pull make it easier to press pedals, thus the leverage can be adjusted to make a shorter pull without needing excessive pedal pressure, which also reduces the amount of slack in the pull train when a string is both raised and lowered.
As a bonus, because the helper spring is alleviating some of the 'weight' on the lowering finger, the tension on the lowering spring can be reduced, making activating the lowers easier  |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 28 May 2021 3:37 am
|
|
I'm not certain now if I saw a picture of this on someone else's guitar or if I was looking at a half-stop rig and thought "why not just use it as a raise helper?"
This is what I did. For visual unsorting, Blue is the helper line. Red is the raise pull.
Added plus is that it is adjustable.
 |
|
|
|
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
|
Posted 28 May 2021 8:30 am
|
|
Thank you for sharing the pictures and experience!! I just took ownership of a Bolt-On and I’m elated about the tone/overtones, stability, sustain, and note separation. The feel is tolerable, but if I can tweek it to make it more ergonomically comfortable then I’ll likely try it.
I especially wondering about using half-stop assemblies to make the process finely adjustable.
Thank you again and keep the info coming.
Best regards
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
|
|
|
Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
|
Posted 29 May 2021 10:14 pm
|
|
| Jim Pitman wrote: |
Marty I would think on a push pull you just adjust the return spring so it exerts less force on a the raise finger?
I'm no PP expert but it seems there is no need for raise helpers. |
The return springs have nothing to do with pedal feel on a raise, only lowers which actually feel ok on my guitars.They just keep changer pulled to body. I set the return springs where they will return pitch but very little more.. I fact, I usually take return springs off strings I don’t lower and screw the tuning screw in end where pushes the changer all way to body. Maybe gives more body contact for better tone and sustain. Save them if you ever decide to lower that string.
I’ve seen push pulls with helper springs but may are may not do any hood from my experience. One thing I like about the push pull is the pedal feel. If timed correct with compression springs and pedal stops, they are perfect. I’m also not fond of the little springs on the pedals themselves. Way too strong for their purpose so I usually take them off or replace with weaker springs.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 30 May 2021 3:02 am
|
|
| Sorry. I got inverted there - I see from the pics lower springs counter the push. |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 30 May 2021 4:36 am
|
|
Pedals are harder to mash on a PP than most all pulls, but after you use it for a while you don't think about it.
I had the opposite to get used to. I went from an Emmons PP to a Franklin. Took me a while to not "stomping" hard on the pedals. |
|
|
|
