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Topic: Video concerning tuning i.e. Just vs Equal Temperament |
Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 8:01 am |
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I thought I would share this informative video on various tunings as it gets discussed here quite often.
https://youtu.be/lvmzgVtZtUQ
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 9:21 am
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That's great Dick! I would advise all pedal steel players to listen to that video. It doesn't tell you how to tune the pedal steel but teaches you there's no absolute, just what you(and the recording engineer/producer) determine is acceptable.
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2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 11:22 am
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| On my computer, that link goes to a video discussing the 12-tone scale. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 2:05 pm
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Did you watch the video Fred?
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 4:15 pm
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I always find David Bennett's videos deep but enlightening!
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 7:33 pm
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Do not try to use Equal Temperament for guitars or fiddles.
Works fine on pianos. 2020 was my 50th year in the piano tuning business. (Also,66 yrs of playing steel guitars.)
Thanx,
Jim
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Jim Bates, Alvin, Texas
Emmons LeGrand,Sho-Bud Super Pro, SB ProII - E13th,C6th on all. Many Resonator guitars |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 26 Mar 2021 9:14 pm
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Jim, the reality is that unless you play a fretless guitar or one with those crazy, wavy frets, your guitar is set up to play ET as that is how the fret position is determined. You (and probably every other guitar player) tweaks to tuning of each string so it sounds good to your ear with the chords you use most often, But play any single note on a string, and then any other note on that same string - and their relationship is ET unless you intentionally bend one.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 7:09 pm
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| Douglas Schuch wrote: |
| But play any single note on a string, and then any other note on that same string - and their relationship is ET unless you intentionally bend one. |
I recently read a compelling argument by Steve Kimock suggesting that we (players of fretted guitars) are adjusting tuning more than we might consciously think. And after some tests on my own on various (fretted) guitars - but short of recording some playing and then analyzing the tuning, which I still hope to do! - I think he may be onto something.
In a nutshell, the theory seems to be that players - more experienced ones in particular - are typically constantly fine tuning the pitch of each note, often through a combination of variation of finger pressure, micro-bending, and vibrato, and the net result is likely moving it closer to just temperament. After consciously listening to my own technique, I realized I was indeed making minor changes to the pitch of various notes, even when playing chords, and in some cases I surmised that I probably reach for a bigsby or slightly bend the neck of the guitar to compensate for chords where I am otherwise hearing particularly irksome beating. I also did some tests where I intentionally detuned one string a small amount, and realized that I automatically (and subconsciously) compensated for it - for example, if it was flat, I would apply more finger pressure or very slightly bend it into tune, and on an open string where I couldn't compensate with finger pressure I found that I would automatically bend the neck a slight amount to raise the flat string, and if playing other fretted notes at the same time I would simultaneously lighten the fingering to try to flatten those notes to compensate for the neckbend.
What I found particularly interesting in my case is that I'm a sax player by training, and the saxophone - like most/all wind instruments - is inherently quite out of tune with itself (by any tuning standard) and the player is tuning every single note as they play, primarily with embouchure but sometimes aided by physical mechanisms on the instrument (like the tuning slide on a trumpet, or pressing additional keys on woodwinds to slightly lower inherently sharp notes). I had always assumed, though, that this didn't apply to fretted guitar - I assumed I was just tuning the open strings, and as long as the guitar was properly intonated and my technique wasn't terrible the end result was equal temperament. Now I'm not so sure.
I've been playing PSG for a total of 10 days(!) so I'm just starting to explore the concept of tuning on pedal steel, but already I'm encountering some challenges. Frankly, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how just intonation works on a PSG - for example, do most of the tuning charts assume playing is limited to particular voicings/inversions, and that the compensators will cover all the scenarios where just intonation would make some chords sound 'even more out of tune than straight equal temperament'? I need to do some more research - I know there is a ton of great info even just on this board - as well as playing and listening, and possibly a bit of math ... |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 27 Mar 2021 7:18 pm
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| Jim Bates wrote: |
Do not try to use Equal Temperament for guitars or fiddles.
Works fine on pianos. 2020 was my 50th year in the piano tuning business. (Also,66 yrs of playing steel guitars.)
Thanx,
Jim |
Hi Jim - did you tune all pianos the same way, or did you change it for different players/producers?
I ask because some pianists I've performed with or recorded (as recording engineer) have suggested that they sometimes ask for different tuning in different scenarios, and seem to find they have more freedom to use different tuning (not sure if they just mean 'stretch tuning'??) for solo performance or small ensemble performance (especially with strings or singers) whereas they prefer straight equal temperament when playing with large ensembles or when playing with instruments that have static equal temperament (pitched percussion perhaps? or organs?). I realize most pianists don't have the luxury of custom tuning for every gig, but for recording sessions where they are retuning for every session or in larger venues where the piano is retuned for each performance, I'm curious whether you tuned differently based on player preference or whether it was always the same?
Thanks,
Cappone |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 8:51 am
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All of my piano tunings are concert ready, contest ready, and also home pianos for students. I tune to A-440, and use a stretch beginning with C' (C above middle C) and raising the notes per my own stretch formula which will end with last upper octave being raised ~15 cents overall. The low end bass strings, I tune by ear and null the beats based on the the prevailing overtones of those heavy- wound strings
(which will change drastically with how heavy you hit those strings.
Do this test on your strobe tuners by playing the lowest note on your guitar softly and then pick hard and notice the strobe go 'bonkers' before it finds the correct pattern.
Yes, I have had people want me to fine tune the E major chord 'perfectly' so they can have piano to match with their guitars, and then call me back after Rock and Roll bashing, so that C and G chords will sound better.
I always recommend that you do any tweeking (sweeting) to make your ET sound that pleases you.
Thanx,
Jim
PS - When I first began learning piano tuning, I asked a couple of the leading tuners in Houston about some pointers for newbies like me. The main answer I got from most of them: "96 percent of your customers can't tell if it is in tune or not. It is that other 4 percent that you have to worry about!" I always tune for that 4%.
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Jim Bates, Alvin, Texas
Emmons LeGrand,Sho-Bud Super Pro, SB ProII - E13th,C6th on all. Many Resonator guitars |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 9:08 am
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I play Pedal Steel with piano wiz Mario Carboni (The Honky Tonk Rebel), who uses an electric piano. I can get very in tune with him by centering my E's on 442 on my Boss TU-12 tuner and tuning most notes pretty close to that, although G#'s end up being at 440, and with AB down strings 3,5,6 are flattened a bit.
Generally speaking I have found the Jeff Newman 442 JI Chart to be very close to being in tune with electric pianos. |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 9:19 am
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An additional comment for any of you who may be playing in churches with real pipe organs: The pipe organ will have a 'placard' on it that will be in tune to A=440 (something similar) at a room temperature of 74 (or whatever the temp will be for that particular sanctuary at time of performance.
I was sent to tune two pianos to be used in a special performance to celebrate the Brand new pipe organ in the sanctuary. When I arrived, the inside temp of sanctuary was 56 deg F and someone was practicing on the new organ. When I started tuning (to A=440) the organ was very flat wrt piano. I refused to tune to the pipe organ. On the back of that organ was statement Tuned to A 440 at 75 deg F. AND by 11am when church was full and within the 75 deg.
Organ and piano matched!!
Thanx,
Jim
_________________
Jim Bates, Alvin, Texas
Emmons LeGrand,Sho-Bud Super Pro, SB ProII - E13th,C6th on all. Many Resonator guitars |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 28 Mar 2021 12:24 pm
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| Jim Bates wrote: |
All of my piano tunings are concert ready, contest ready, and also home pianos for students. I tune to A-440, and use a stretch beginning with C' (C above middle C) and raising the notes per my own stretch formula which will end with last upper octave being raised ~15 cents overall. The low end bass strings, I tune by ear and null the beats based on the the prevailing overtones of those heavy- wound strings
(which will change drastically with how heavy you hit those strings.
Do this test on your strobe tuners by playing the lowest note on your guitar softly and then pick hard and notice the strobe go 'bonkers' before it finds the correct pattern.
Yes, I have had people want me to fine tune the E major chord 'perfectly' so they can have piano to match with their guitars, and then call me back after Rock and Roll bashing, so that C and G chords will sound better.
I always recommend that you do any tweeking (sweeting) to make your ET sound that pleases you.
Thanx,
Jim
PS - When I first began learning piano tuning, I asked a couple of the leading tuners in Houston about some pointers for newbies like me. The main answer I got from most of them: "96 percent of your customers can't tell if it is in tune or not. It is that other 4 percent that you have to worry about!" I always tune for that 4%. |
Thanks Jim - very informative! |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 6:24 am
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my advice is , don’t listen any advices from anyone , use and tune however works for you ... I had some of the best pro steel players in Nashville at my place, playing , some tune everything straight up 440 , and some tune by ear , they all sound and play 100% in tune ... it is not how you tune, you can either play in tune or you can’t , no matter how you tune ...
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www.steelguitarsonline.com |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 11:14 am
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Amen Damir and besides; what happens when you put the Bar on the Strings?? Makes NO DIFFERENCE how you just tuned all your strings OPEN. Because when you put Bar on the strings over certain frets(which is only a guide to intonation) and now the different gauges of different tones are vibrating under a steel bar; as that CREATES intonation and NOW YOUR EAR becomes the absolute to intonation; NOT how you just tuned the open strings.
Do not get obsessed with "how to tune your pedal steel"; get obsessed with "how to TUNE YOUR EAR".
To tune your ear; START With THIS>
https://www.dronetonetool.com/
pick at NOTE on the keyboard; now it will drone that tone; now go to that root fret on your steel guitar and play that note(no effects at all)and barely roll your bar a smidge behind the fret reference line and in front of the line and hear it go out of tune with the drone both ways; then you can find where it sounds IN TUNE no tension on two tones blending, and the right pressure on bar; then choose the harmony string; same thing...then go to pedal down position; same thing...and go to all your positions that create tones in that drone tone key...and continue on. Then do your scales; then do your warm up passes and do your playing; all with the drone tone on, and you will continuously hear the reference.....
THAT is the way allllllllll the guys Damir has heard that tune completely different from each other; LEARNED TO PLAY IN TUNE.....they simply learned to tune their ear.
PERIOD...
Now get to work and quit trying to tune your stupid guitar to what'the'heck ever method tuners are showing you ......STOP THAT.!!!!!
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 12:11 pm
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| We still need to silently check our tuning and/or tune up when we get to a gig. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2021 1:46 pm
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| Quote: |
| We still need to silently check our tuning and/or tune up when we get to a gig. |
Absolutely Pete; strings are strings, they are sensitive to many things; so as one progresses with how he tunes his open strings with the progression of his ear; know where they go on your tuner and touch them up silently when needed, I agree.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 5 Apr 2021 12:35 pm
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| I assume when the statement was made to not tune guitars and fiddles ET it meant steel guitars and it didn't mean fretted instruments which are built to be tuned ET. |
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