Vintage Pedal Steels - Original or Not?

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

I've been watching Jon Light's thread about the Emmons fretboard saga, and his efforts to retain the original if possible, via some minor restoration or whatever, and it got me to thinking about a topic that has come up a time or two before.

In the world of vintage steel guitars I've always wondered why originality doesn't seem to be all that much of a value-add? Old Fender and Gibson guitars instantly devalue a huge amount with any sort of non-original mods; i.e. new pickguard, pickup change, refinish (particularly disastrous for value). Steel guitars on the other hand seem somewhat immune to the non-original curse.

I guess part of it is that a steel guitar is as much a machine as it is a musical instrument, and it has to be functional. I had this conversation with a bud a while back, and his comment was that at some point, mechanical things wear out and you have to replace them or the guitar becomes unplayable. He likened it a water pump on a car. If you want to drive it, you have to fix it. That's why guys like Dean Chance and Michael Yahl (among many others) provide a valuable service in making quality replacement parts.

Still, I'm mystified why vintage Fender and Gibson guitars take a huge value-hit on any sort of modifications, and yet I routinely see old Emmons and Shobud guitars that have been 'restored' with non-essential, cosmetic mods; new Mica (or refinished), new fretboards, and often replacement PUs, and somehow, that doesn't really seem to have any serious impact on the desirability of the guitar, or it's market value.

Personally, I kind of prefer the 'honest' wear on a steel myself, given the option. Let it tell it's story. But I realize that a lot of steel players like a bright, shiny, new looking instrument. So it seems that bottom line; originality to a point, i.e. someone didn't turn an old Emmons into a wagon (do a search for that story if you haven't heard it Smile

) matters some to value, but not much?

EDIT: I'm not intending to try and talk someone out of, or blame anyone for a full-on, 'frame-off' restoration, just my 0.02.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts"

Dave Stroud · From: Texas

This is an interesting topic.

I've noticed that many steel players value aesthetics and mechanical features over originality (or even tone). The difference between vintage steel guitars and other instruments is that there are fewer components on a steel guitar that are truly irreplaceable. In fact, pit-less castings are the only parts that come to mind... Unless the laminate companies use a different recipe nowadays.

David Ellison · From: California, USA

Old Fender and Gibson electric guitar are valuable to collectors. They're considered iconic to the baby boomer generation.

Steel guitars are only valuable to players. No one else would want them. You can buy a beat up Fender steel guitar from the '50s for very little money. A Stratocaster from the same year that probably used the same parts pulled out of the same bins by the same Fender factory workers on the same day would cost ridiculous $$$ because a wealthy collector wants to buy it and lock it away in a glass case.

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

That's my thinking too --- there's a world of guitar collectors out there who don't have a lot to do with playing the instruments. Or who chose lucrative careers over being musicians and this is their consolation prize -- paying top dollar for instruments that players couldn't afford. And scorning upgrades to or rehabs of instruments (in the interest of playability). Meh. I don't have any say in how they go about their business and I most assuredly don't have any interest in their opinion of what I do with my tools (instruments).
But yes -- our steels are mechanical contraptions far beyond what any vintage Les Paul or Esquire is and a worn out rivet in a changer is NOT some sort of holy relic.

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

A â€˜63 Strat is worth at least ten times as much as even a current custom shop reproduction, based strictly on â€œcollector value.â€ There arenâ€™t a significant number of steel collectors, the total market size is minuscule in comparison, and thereâ€™s really no big money to be made.

Or somebody would be counterfeiting Franklins!

Duane Becker · From: Elk,Wa 99009 USA

I have two Emmons push pulls. One is a 1968 #1224. I bought it from the original owner in 2000. It only had 2 right knee levers on it. I installed 3 more-2 left knees and one vertical on the left. The played or used cosmetic look of the steel was/is noticeable. However I do not want to alter the original parts. Fret boards have some minor scratches on them, and few nicks on the formula. A couple of the fellas have mentioned to me that I should replace the used looking items. However, NO!
It plays great, sounds great and looks vintage.

Duane Becker · From: Elk,Wa 99009 USA

On the topic of value, I do notice the values of vintage as well as new pedal steels are going up in price a little. They probably will not follow the values of the regular strumming guitars, but at least I see price increase. Not that I'm complaining, but I do remember buying my 3 neck Fender custom non pedal for $25 in 1974.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Sandy Inglis · From: Christchurch New Zealand

I have a 1982 Sho-Bud D10 Super Pro which has had a busy life and I only use it for practice. One day I will restore it as it is a lovely instrument but 'clunky'.
I'm more interested in restoring it's play-ability than retaining it's vintage value.
I have recently had my Gibson SG guitar (which I've had since 1968) restored as it was unplayable! Every part of it was replaced except the headstock (with original serial number)and my wife thinks I've ruined it but it plays fantastically now. It may not be of value to a collector but it is of great value to me as a working instrument.
The body was cracked and the neck unstable. The original P90's I had replaced with Seymore-Duncan's and like them better.
My giging PSG is a Zum D10.
_________________
01'Zumsteel D10 9+9; Sho Bud D10 SuperPro; 6 String Lap Steel (Homemade); Peavey Nashville 1000; Fender Deluxe 85;
1968 Gibson SG; Taylor 710 CE; Encore Tele Copy; Peterson Tuner; HIWATT T40 C 40W/20W Combo

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

https://www.hansonrivet.com/rivets/know-your-rivets/
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts"

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

Although the six-strings from Da Golden Age were built as work instruments, they've become objets d'art, much like (say for example) a 1939 Packard Business Coupe, and no one expects to use them for their original purpose, any more than a salesman would do calls in the aforementioned Packard.

Steel players DO expect to be able to perform on their vintage axes, and as actual work instruments,upgrades are fine. Another parallel:

There are still WW2-era DC-3's doing revenue work. Nobody's gonna fuss if the engines aren't original to the airframe! Winking

Tom Quinn · Posted 28 Mar 2021 5:21 pm

There are definitely reasons to seek an out original push pull. One of my boltons is brutally original, minus the plastic logo put on at the factory, the other pretty close. Whatever floats your boat and for best results, work on your palm blocking.

_________________
I need an Emmons!

Chance Wilson · From: California, USA

One thing that might be unique to pedal steels is that provenance trumps originality in reference to value. Similarly, a crazy modification can contribute to authenticating that provenance and/or improve it's useability.
For me personally and for many of my friends, originality is often important for many reasons not related to dollar value. It has sent me on many decades long debates and educational adventures. For example, one time I was looking at a '49 Bigsby next to a '59 Fender and while the Bigsby looked new,most of the finish on the Fender was flaking off despite it having spent it's life under someone's bed. That led me further down the neverending road of understanding finishes. I've even had this happen with mica steels: I received a 60s Emmons once with no mica on the apron and for a year or two wondered if I would ever find a piece of mica with the same composition and thickness since everything consumer grade at the time was thinner than it was in the 60s. A single atypical screw on a steel can lead to drawn out discoveries related to military or industrial manufacturing or surplus in the vicinity of the maker. The geek in me really enjoys staring at a tiny tool mark that wasn't quite polished out and identifying what tools were used to manufacture that part.
I agree there are comparisons with cars and there's probably equal amounts of people here that would prefer concourse,OG daily driver, period custom,barn find or resto mod.
In conclusion, I guess it can go either way: A mod can help me discover the person who added it and why and originality can help me understand the luthier and their choices.

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

One of the things I always found amusing was that a steel player freaks out at a little ding on the underside of his pedal bar, while guitar players will actually PAY to have their brand new guitars beaten up & aged looking.
When I bought my LeGrande BRAND NEW, it had blemishes & tooling marks all over the endplates & pedal bar.

I really couldn't care less, as long as it plays & sounds great, which it does.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag.

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

This is the reason I donâ€™t buy vintage collector guitars. Iâ€™m always modifying guitars to my specs. Collector guitars take a massive hit when you start replacing things on them.
_________________
D.S. Rigsby

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

I've been a mostly banjo collector for many years, but they all get played. Can't stand the thought of somebody snagging a great old instrument and basically putting it mothballs. Yeah, originality is important on "collector grade" instruments.

I have several vintage pedal steels. My main player is a Madison Sho Bud permanent that has had plenty of mods over its life, and really that's part of its charm. I've made a few mods myself, but tried to do them "in the style of" what had already been done. Great guitar. Does all the changes I need and plays and sounds great.

I have another earlier permanent that is totally un-modded since it left Shot's garage. Not an extra screw hole to be found. It will remain that way. I figure if it made it 60 plus years without any changes (but signs of having been played), I'm not going to be the first to molest it. It's a great guitar too, but has a pre-standard copedant on both necks and no knees. Sure sounds good though--probably the best sounding steel I've ever had. As long as you're playing early country on it, it's perfect.

Dave

Ron Carter · From: New Zealand

If it works and looks tidy and sounds sweet it`ll do me, enjoy making up parts bringing old things back to life. Tidied up ZB Custom D/10 was a bit of a mission probably ongoing but very happy with it

Anthony Parish · From: Austin

Interesting discussion.

I'll throw in 2 more ideas...

1) The mechanics of the 50s/60s Fender and Gibson electric guitars are on par with guitars being manufactured today. Sure, there have been some improvements over the years (more precise manufacturing, PLEKing, etc), but those improvements have been small relative to the original design. For the steel guitar, however, there have been TONS of mechanical improvements since the 50s/60s. So, the original guitars from the 50s/60s have some mechanical disadvantages relative to the modern guitars. Steel guitar mods often add to the instrument's playability.

2) With old guitars, so much of the feel comes from the wood. As wood ages it goes through all kinds of cool changes in terms of its density, weight, resonance, etc. So, older 6-strings often feel better. For steel guitars, part of the feel is in the wood, but a bigger part is in the pedals, levers, rods, etc, and those things don't change much over the years. So, older doesn't necessarily feel better.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic