MSA return springs

Gary Patterson · From: Gallatin, TN

I need to tap into the Forum hive-mind, please. I'm building (assembling) an S-12 using an MSA changer and variety of other parts purchased from what was probably a D-12 conversion. The cabinet is home-made as are maybe half of the undercarriage. Using the first picture as a guide (thanks, somebody) I determined that I need to install these springs to the changer lower-fingers. (This is not my guitar, but a pic I swiped from somebody else's post).

The second and third pics are my project. My question is about the tension of these springs. For all the precision that goes into a PSG, this setup is decidedly imprecise. Does anybody have a good suggestion as to how to determine (and achieve) the correct tension? As for my project, I would estimate that these springs are stretched 1/8 -3/16" in the photos. Frankly, it seems pretty tight to me. However, getting any kind of consistent adjustment doesn't seem feasible. How do you MSA mechanics know if you've got it right?

William Carter · From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA

You need to contact Dennis Detweiler on the forum. He knows everything about fixing up these old 12 string MSA guitars.
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ZumSteel D10, Mullen G2 SD12 Universal, Rittenberry SD10

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Unfortunately the earlier MSA's had non-adjustable return springs and they chose springs that worked for the majority of applications. The spring needs to be tight enough to both return the lowering scissor to the neutral position as well as keeping the lowering scissor at the neutral position while the raise scissor is activated. There is a fairly wide range of tensions involved in both actions and the original MSA return springs were a bit of overkill resulting in stiffer than ideal lowering tension. That being said, if the tension is too stiff it can result in the raise scissor being activated when the lower scissor is being pulled- especially when the lower hole employed is the one closest to the changer axle. That may be why in the photos you see some irregularities in the springs- someone was attempting to lessen the tension a bit by separating a few of the coils. Modern guitars pretty much attend to this by using adjustable return springs.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'd be tempted to get the adjustable spring kit from Michael Yahl.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Great idea

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Jim already knows this, but a lot of folks don't quite understand the interplay between the string, return spring, and the stop bar.
If the spring is too much stronger than the string tension, lowers can be compromised when pulling the raise scissor off the stop bar offers less resistance than stretching the return spring that little bit more.
Ordinarily, this does not happen much, but if you drop the 6th string a whole tone, it will happen a LOT on an MSA.
I've found a workaround for the problem, but it would be better to have the proper spring tension.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Gary Patterson · From: Gallatin, TN

Thanks, guys. I guess the next step is to rod the pulls and string it up to see how it goes. I appreciate the advice about Yahl's adjustable springs. It may come to that.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Adjustable springs are a definite plus.
When I disassembled, cleaned and re-assembled my guitars I replaced all of the springs on both of my MSA U-12's. The original springs are much too stiff in my opinion. I replaced them with slightly lighter springs that I purchased from Ace Hardware. I should have purchased an adjustment mod kit, but did it the old fashioned way by clipping a coil or two at a time and reconnecting it until it didn't pull away from the stop bar when raising that particular string. The lighter springs resulted in a much smoother knee lever action on the lowering pulls.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

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