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Topic: FIRST LAP STEEL BUILD - great fun then major bummer |
JB Bobbitt
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 2:29 pm |
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Hi all. I've been working on my first lap steel build for a year now, with substantial breaks for excessive heat and wildfire smoke, and shop safety stand-downs. But I've completed the prototype (the wood body), nailed all the parts on, and set it up. Then discovered a major conceptual design flaw: the tuning machines aren't compatible with the configuration of the of the strings from the nut. The machines fit several criteria I want (another post), but the string angle off the machine to the nut is too acute, causing the string to break at the lip of the tuners furthest from the nut.
Details:
1. Tuners are by Riot Works. Well constructed, I'll offer a review later. Gearless, 40:1 tuning ratio.
2. 25 inch scale. The body is flat end-to-end. The nut is 1/2" tall (from Georgeboards, good product and service). See pics for tuner layout, note that the middle 2 strings have longest path to tuners.
3. I'm attempting open D tuning: Low to high D A D F# A D
3. String gauge, low to high: 56 46 36 26w 18 16. The 36 and 26 both break off at the lip of the machine, a full step or more below pitch. As many times as a care to try.
Any thoughts or solutions? (I'm already aware of re-design)
I have ideas (see last pic), but need to resolve this design limit. I'll try lighter gauge strings before abandoning this configuration.
Thanks a heap, I'll post separately about construction and tuners.
-jbb
_________________
"Time is an enemy"
-Bob Dylan |
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James Inkster
From:
Ukee, BC
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 2:44 pm
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I'm not entirely sure I understand, but are you looking to increase the break angle? If so, you need a higher nut, or more peghead angle.
If this weren't a prototype unit, I'd suggest you scarf a new peghead on... |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 3:09 pm
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I'm skeptical of this and I don't know how much down-break over the nut this will leave you but how about a 'secondary nut' to change the angle of approach to the machine.
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Tommy Martin Young
From:
Sacramento-California, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 3:12 pm
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Nice job JB!
I also dig those tuners - I bought a handful a few years back when they made by Alpaca. I use them to add a 7th string to 6-stringers. Here's one that I am almost finished with. I agree with James in regards to the break angle needing to be higher. So being the lazy man that I am here's my .02 cents. First I'd confirm that a higher angle solves it and I'd probably throw a bolt under it (similar to pic) or shim to get it up to the 1/2" tall range or higher (we're not looking for intonation just troubleshooting). This nut was made by Ryan Rukavina and is .55" tall - distance from nut to furthest tuner is 4.5" inches. Second thing I'd do ( again because I am too stubborn to remake anything) I'd reconfigure the 2 problem tuners. It looks like you've got plenty of headstock real estate to work with if you're not wed to the current layout.
_________________
The One & Lonely Tommy Young
"Now is the time for drinking;
now the time to beat the earth with unfettered foot."
-Quintus Horatius Flaccus (65-8 B.C.) |
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Joe Elk
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 3:24 pm
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Nice Looking Steel!
Joe Elk Central Ohio |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 4:04 pm
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For 25" scale length, I get the following string tensions for your tuning using this calculator - https://tension.stringjoy.com/ :
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String 6 5 4 3 2 1
Note D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 D4
Gauge(in) .056 .046 .036 .026w .018p .016
Tension(lb) 21.0 31.4 34.7 30.5 24.7 34.8
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Recognize of course that string construction (e.g., wrap/core ratio), materials, and so on can affect the tension for a given overall string gauge. But this should be reasonably close.
So, you can see that there's a pretty wide variance in string tensions, with the 36 gauge at almost 35 lb. So first, I'd choose gauges to more evenly distribute the tension, and perhaps even lower the overall tension a bit. The total tension is about 177 lb, an average of about 29.5 lb. So that doesn't really explain the 3rd string breakage. My bet is that the tuners don't handle that kind of tension well. To explain a bit ...
I have a Gibson Firebird V with Steinberger tuners that sort of use that same principle in a slightly different design - but the string comes out of the hole at the top like yours. More or less, these ones here - Stew Mac Link
I can tell you that there is collar around that SB hole that appears to me to give a more gradual string bend coming out of the hole. And even so, I definitely broke some strings trying to put on heavy gauges for slide guitar. I was able to do it, but I had to be careful, and ultimately went to a lighter set - like 11-48 or 10-46, depending.
I don't particularly care for tuners like this - even the Steinbergers - because, IMO, they are tempermental getting strings to pitch and because even the SB break angle seems extreme to me. I took one look at yours and thought, "What's keeping strings from breaking?"
Anyway, FWIW. Raising the nut might reduce the break angle a the tuner a bit. But it seems to me that the tuner itself is causing a new issue you'd never see with a string coming off a conventional tuning post. Maybe banjo-style tuners if you really want the tuner to tune from the back of the headstock? That what was on Firebirds for decades before they moved to the SBs. |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2021 6:05 pm
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not in any order for any reason.....
#1. remove 4 of the gee whiz tuners on the bass side. buy you some $10 a set sealed tuners off ebay...6 on a side. make sure they are for that side. cut a nice line right next to your tuner holes that will allow four standard tuners to be fitted in. you might need to dowel the holes and redrill. use 4 standard tuners on the left side and the two gee whiz tuners on the right. that would at least get you working.
#2.... maybe this should be #1! call the tuner maker guys and ask them why this is not working. you actually have LESS break than a tilt back guitar headstock since the nut is so high. they should be able to let you know the exact issue. ask them it you can drill the opening for less of a sharp angle and then smooth down the edge so there is no chance of the string exiting over such a sharp edge.
#3. remove gee whiz tuners. get a 6 string keyless guitar tuner. cut off the headstock to fit.
#4. get a set of tuners like they use on the gibson firebird. they exit the back in a straight line. banjo tuners also might work. |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 10 Feb 2021 10:11 am VGrooves
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Second Quick Thought.
Get a set of $5.00 needle files at Walmart or where-ever.
Use the Triangle File to Simply File the notches a little to taste.
That Tough PLA takes a file nicely.
On that one string , you can simply place a screw in position to push it over that little bit.
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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Raymond Jones
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 10 Feb 2021 10:54 am string breakage -
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| George has the solution for you. Only I would use a foredom or dremel with a dental (carbide) burr to break the angle on all the tuners. Not enough stroke length for a hand file. Very different look to those tuners. Cheers - Ray |
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Raymond Jones
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 10 Feb 2021 11:01 am Tuners -
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| Why isn't a nice break angle done by the makers? Ray |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 10 Feb 2021 12:36 pm
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Your first build looks nice. It's great to go for something "not the norm", but maybe you should have (at least for the first one) built one that was a tried and true design. It maybe would have given you some confidence. I hope you don't get discouraged from your problems. I'm sure it will all work out for you. It's just nice to have the first one under your belt sucessfully.
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 10 Feb 2021 12:47 pm
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Even if you manage to get a string up to pitch, you have a sharp 80 degree or thereabouts bend where the string enters the tuner which will straigthen and rebend eveytime you tune the string, The strings will fail from fatigue.
Bite the bullet and change the tuners to conventional types
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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JB Bobbitt
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2021 6:37 pm
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Wow, thanks all of you. I learned a lot in this thread.
Update: I reduced the string gauges: D2 0.038 to 0.026; F#3 0.026 to 0.020w. It worked for the D string, but the 0.020w breaks well below pitch. I used a Dremel and made an adequate groove to smooth the lip, but same result. I conclude it's clearly the break angle. I'll try a Steinberger (need to counterbore the headstock a bit) just to see. But if that's not the easy fix I'm inclined to start over with that maple board after I resolve the configuration issue. I'll make more blocks with the current poplar board.
But to clarify, I have definite reasons to use this type of tuner (next post, soon), having to do with limitations of my left hand. I planned the build from the start as a prototype, and that strategy has worked extremely well. The board is a left over piece of poplar I used to make my grandson's blocks, no finish applied. I can reproduce the profile of the guitar on that piece of maple in the last pic in 1-1/2 hrs. The electronics &tc. will swap right over. Note the room at the butt for benders, which will have to wait for the tuner configuration.
Bill, thanks for kind words. I make lots of stuff that doesn't work, and prototypes often turn out as good as the intended project. I'm not at all discouraged.
I'll follow with some pics of the build. Some things actually worked.
-jbb
_________________
"Time is an enemy"
-Bob Dylan |
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JB Bobbitt
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2021 5:38 pm
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Before I swapped out the tuners, I made a test rig to be sure The Steinberger machines would work. They held fine with the flat-body configuration.
Picture file
Picture file
With the Steinberger machines
Thanks for all your help and input.
-jbb
_________________
"Time is an enemy"
-Bob Dylan |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 15 Feb 2021 9:50 am Congratulation Great Final 1st Build.
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Congratulation Great Final 1st Build.
I missed the whole thing you were talking about, - The strings were breaking , I some how thought they were skipping out of the nut, --- Doughhh
1 little notice, When I set my nut and bridges I use the fretboard to center and straighten the Nut to the neck-head visually. Forgetting all measurements.
I Blue Tape it in position then;
I go ahead and set the nut with #4 Screws. Next I set the Bridge aligned to the nut. Centered and blah - yadda.
This will make the final look down the neck and nut area much more even , -- even if it isn't.
Again Congrats,
Best Regards GeorgeBoards
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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