MSA Tuning problem

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

A friendly howdy to everybody
and hello folks from good olÂ´germany,

my name is Mike... again a new face here ... so please understand if things don't go so smoothly at the beginning ;-)

By the way... Unfortunately, after many years of not speaking my English is not really good anymore ... but I hope you can understand me anyway ;-)) Please be so nice and try to write in the simplest possible words so that I can understand that too ;-))

Ok, my current problem is this:

With my "MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL" I have a problem with pedal 3, E [440] to F# [437] (4rd string). When tuning the pedal, the basic pitch E is also tuned. If I set the E correctly [to 440Hz) and then want to tune the pedal to F# [437], then E gets out of tune by up to 5-6 points, to 445-456Hz WHILE IÂ´m tuning the pedal!

How can that be??? I've tried pretty much to solve the problem. I also adjusted the pull rod on the bell crank a little looser. But nothing has worked so far. It always sticks to the same problem no matter what I try.

On the same pedal there is also the 5th string, B -> C #. And with that everything is ok. This problem only occurs on the 4th string.

Does anyone have an idea or maybe even a solution? That would be awesome! Because meanwhile I am faced with the problem like an ox in front of the barn door ...

Please HEEELP !!!!

;-)))
_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Check the lower return spring on the affected string. If it is moving when you press the C pedal then it is lowering and raising at the same time. If you cut a few coils off of it it should work fine. Also- anytime that happens- back off the tuning nut until nothing happens and then start again.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

This sounds like a case of overtuning whereby you don't have enough travel in the pulling system for string 4.

Look at Jon Light's sticky post at the top of the Pedal Steel section titled Overtuning and Undertuning. Read through that and see if any of those issues apply to your situation.

Great looking MSA Vintage XL.

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Jim, Jerry ... Thank you both for your super quick reply! Very Happy

To Jim: I've checked and the return spring doesn't pull when the C pedal is pressed. So that's probably not the reason. There must be another reason why it could be. But thank you for your consideration!

# Also- anytime that happens- back off the tuning nut until nothing happens and then start again. #
I have already tried that many times before I put the question here in the forum. That doesn't help either. If I completely loosen the tuning nut and tune the basic tuning to "E" and then slowly turn up the nut, then the string for "F #" tunes up a few points WITHOUT "E" being tuned. But, at a certain point - a few turns of the nut - "E" suddenly pulls in again.
I have ZERO idea why this could be ...

To Jerry: Thx 4 it! I will check it out and will look at JonÂ´s sticky post. But I think there is enough travel space. But, ok, I will check it again...
And thankÂ´s again, Jerry... Yes, it IS a real pretty guitar Winking

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

If that is the case, as Jerry says, back out the pedal stop which is a small allen head set screw at the base of the pedal rod-and you will have to remove the pedal rod to adjust it. You'll most likely only see the hole for it from the top- but there is one for each pedal- and it will be tight but generally will turn. You will probably only have 2-3 turns to fix the problem. Just not sure why all of a sudden that would happen unless you changed the string gauge. Every pedal and knee lever HAS to have some free play before it is activated in order to assure that the changer is returning to its neutral position where the scissors are stopped by the stop plate for the open note.

Mike Ritchie · From: Florida, USA

I had a similar issue after moving a pull rod on the bell crank while trying to change the feel of my C pedal. As soon as I moved the rod, what you are describing happened to me. When I moved the rod back to the original location on the bell crank the guitar tuned fine again.

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Jim,
why I have this never-had-before-problem:
I've only have this Steel since the end of last year. In the 80s, I had exactly the same model that I was on many stages with. Unfortunately, I had to sell them in the 90s. Stupid way Sad

For many years I have been looking for "my old" Steel in order to be able to buy it back if possible. Unfortunately in vain. But I couldn't find her anywhere Sad

By chance I found this exact model, in exactly the same color, on a website in the UK where it was for sale! Yipiiieeh! I bought it straight away and got a really well-preserved instrument. Only had to rebuild the knee lever as it had a completely different setup from my old one.

Two things are still not so good:
1st: I had the "Sound Control Unit" on my old MSA (control of tone and volume and the bypass switch) on the right side. The complete unit is missing from the "new" one. It only has the bank switch.
(Does anyone happen to know where I might get the Sound Control Unit ???)
And 2st: The discribed problem with the C-pedal.

Your suggestion with the pedal stop: Good idea! I haven't even figured it out yet.
Unfortunately I had to find out that I didn't have the right key for this Allen screw! I have EVERY size here ... but NOT THAT exactly! AAAAaaarrrgghh.... Mad

And because of the lockdown, I can't just go to a hardware store and buy one. Now I have to see where I can find the right one. *Rrrrrr...* It feels... Devil

I've been fiddling with this problem for so long ... I feel like a rider sitting backwards on a horse...
_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Mike,
thx 4 ur tip! But I tried a lot with the rod lenght and the settings of the bell cranks. Those were the very first things I tried. But, regardless of what settings I made, the problem always remained the same.
_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Yes, Al, they are the only ones in this size. I have all the others I need. Just not this one. Yesterday I ordered a set of inch screw drivers from ebay (here in germany we have mm sizes), where the needed one should be included. But they shouldn't arrive until next Tuesday ... So that means wait and be patient Rolling Eyes

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Check the holes the pull rod is in.
I got my MSA Classic out of its home under the bed, And checked the 4th string C pedal pull rod. At the changer the rod is in the 1st hole down from the changer, The bell crank Ferrule is in the 2nd hole down from the Cross Rod the pull rod is hooked to.

This would be another thing to check.
Good Luck and back Happy Steelin.

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Oh Bobby, thank you very much for the time you have invested in checking this! Great forum here, with a bunch of lovely people who really care. That is really to be appreciated!
It's a bit difficult for me to describe how it is with my Steel. I already said ... my English Winking

So afterwards I'll take two or three photos to document it. Because there is no space to install the pull rod in hole 1 on the changer and in hole 2 on the bell crank, as there is another above the pull rod, which sits in hole 2 on the changer, which comes from the LKL.
But, I make photos to show it.

To Al: Yes, it makes sense to have both systems Winking

But I haven't needed the inch driver here in Germany in my whole life. I have a large set of different drivers that I once received from my father. And so far they have solved all the problems I had with Allen screws * gg *. In addition, I have a small sentence that I received when I bought my first MSA. And so far this had also been completely sufficient for what I had screwed on the Steel. Until now ... I just miss this ONE SIZE. Now waiting longingly for the delivery of the ordered set ... which, by the way, now also contains BOTH system drivers Laughing

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

YESSS !!! The delivery of the Allen keys I had ordered arrived today, but earlier than expected Very Happy

. Of course I had to try it out immediately. Yes, it is - as I already assumed - the 1/16. Great! So, let's go ... solve the problem.
And... I canÂ´t believe it... Exactly THAT screw on the Steel is knocked out Rolling Eyes

. The Allen no longer works. It works on all screws on the other pedals. Just not ON THE ONE I HAVE TO ADJUST !!!!!! Evil or Very Mad

It's like milking a mouse...
I'm standing in front of this beautiful guitar... and can't play it because of a single mini-mini-mini screw.
But I can't drill out the defective screw because there is no replacement for it.
Does somebody has any idea?
I could... Mad

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

What you have could be stripped- try heating it- maybe put a soldering iron on the aluminum outside the screw and heat it up for a few minutes. I've CAREFULLY used a torch in the past but gotta be real careful. The other thing you could do is to remove the back plate, disconnect the pedal rod and screw holding the connector in, back out the cross shaft- remove the crank assembly that hooks the cross shaft to the pedal rod, grind away a small area where the adjusting screw hits, and replace it all. This should take about 20-30 min.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I have successfully used a Torx T6 wrench where an Allen 1/16" was just too loose -- either the wrong size or a stripped out set screw head.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Good idea Jon. Might consider that as well as heating as that might help loosen the thread locking compound on the screw.

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Jim, thatÂ´s good ideas... But, before I started to remove the front plate...

...JonÂ´s tip came in. And then I covered my head with my hand ... Logical! Why didn't I think of that myself? Sometimes you are blind to the simplest of things.
So, Jon: THATÂ´s it!!! It fits! Thx for this tip!!! Very Happy

But turning the screw further doesn't help with the problem either. I have the screw out so far that it no longer sticks out at the bottom. The pedal travel is now of course considerably longer. And yet "E" still agrees at a certain point. Now there are no longer 5 points but only 2 but still.
Now I have discovered that the tension plate on the finger is pushed out a little bit when tuning the nut for the pedal. And that is exactly what makes up the 2 points when tuning. But how can you prevent that? What is that supposed to be? Because, as I already wrote, the pull rod for the 5th string (B->C#) hangs on the same crossbar of the pedal. And that is also 2 semitones. So no difference to the 4th string. And the move is right and can be tuned without any problems! So, theoretically there must be some problem with or on the finger !? Or?
_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

HA! I did it! Very Happy

Last night, while I was trying to fall asleep, I came up with an Idea

. Today I went straight to try it. Before that, I told my Steel to make an effort and work after the attempt ... otherwise it goes on a journey ... by flight out of the window... Oh Well

My idea was to swap both lower pull rods on the 4th string.
I have now put the pull rod of pedal 3 (E->F#) from hole 1 on the finger to hole 2 and the pull rod LKL (E->F)) from hole 2 to hole 1.
Then I had to readjust the lever stop on the LKL a little bit after swapping it, and hey presto .. it's magic ... now everything works! How easy it can be to find a solution sometimes. Laughing

I thank everyone here who wrote to me for your time, your ideas for solutions and your thoughts on my problem! Many many thanks! Smile

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Hip hip!!!!

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Way to Go Michael, Happy Steelin.

Michael Heinze · From: Germany

Thx again Bobby! Very Happy

_________________
MSA Supersustain II, Vintage XL, D10, 8x4 (Build in 1979).
Lead- & back vocals, guitar (acoustic and electric), dobro, 5str-banjo, bass, piano, drums & percussions, mouthharp, accordion.
DAW Productions

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