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Topic: What was the Remington Stabilizer? |
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2020 8:17 pm |
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I’m having time to read through some of my old Steelguitar magazines that have piled up over the years.
What was the Remington Stabilizer that was offered on new guitars or could be retrofitted to their existing guitars to counter act detuning issues? I tried searching here and the Inet and couldnt find any pics or definitive explanation.
Thanks!
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RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 27 Dec 2020 8:36 pm
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Marty, here's a picture of one I used to own. I never adjusted it, and I really couldn't tell if it was effective. My memory is foggy, but I don't recall the guitar any noticeable de-tuning. It's just a single Allen screw supporting the changer acle from the rear.
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2020 11:18 pm
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| From the looks, The object was 0 flex in the changer axle as pedals were pushed. The screw may have allowed for an exact adjustment to hold the changer axle straight. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 6:32 am
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Thanks folks...I really appreciate the info.
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 8:33 am
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In one of my discussions (probably more like a lecture) Paul Franklin (Sr) stated most of the "cabinet drop" was actually in the changer axle. That would explain the detuning I had in the Franklin compared to very little (inconsequential) detuning in my GFI with "braced" axle.
However, the "cabinet drop" detuning was never an issue when playing in the 38 years I had the Franklin. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 12:02 pm
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Jack,
You touched on something that I’ve been pondering for years. I hope I can articulate it clearly.
I’ve often wondered if SOME of the detuning that occurs is due to the changer fingers moving on the axle, and the axle moving within the pillar blocks/ribs. All of this could be possible because of the tolerances needed to ensure that the moving parts wouldn’t bind —which could cause overall tuning problems. This collection of movements would be small, but “the devil is in the details†comes to mind. It’s probably more pronounced in older guitars because we now have advanced machining capabilities that help to control the tolerances so there would be less movement occurring. (Think about how many modern guitars are NOT detuning badly enough to need a remedy...some being my Justice and Lashley LeGrande)
When I look at the picture of the Remington Tuning Stabilzer the intent appears to be to pull the axle towards the end plate. If so, I’m seeing an avenue to prevent the axle from moving, so now only the fingers can move. Maybe Bruce’s design is pushing the axle towards the end plate to keep it in place and the changer fingers are moving so little that he could maintain the detuning under 2 cents??(I think there’s other things in his overall design too, but I won’t get into that.)
All of this makes me wonder if the LeGrande III design had a two-fold purpose; one to push the axle toward the end plate and the other to prevent the cabinet/soundboard from bowing however minute those variables could be. The additional benefit being the ability to counter act/tune out at will whatever is causing the detuning..?
Just my 2 cents....all insights are welcome.
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 1:44 pm
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Axle bracing looks to be the key to minimizing detuning. There are several approaches to how this is accomplished.
With the Franklin, with no axle stabilization, Press the A pedal and the 6th string (G#) would drop 6 cents. On the GFI, that has axle stabilization, press the A pedal and the 6th string does not detune (at least on my 2000 year build Ultra D-10). |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 7:29 pm
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| Quote: |
| Axle bracing looks to be the key to minimizing detuning. |
Don built me an S-10 BMI a few years ago and when it was delivered I was quite surprised to see that the changer axle is made from what appears to be a rod that is about the same diameter as the pull rods. For all I know it's the same material. The rod is well braced for its entire length, with gaps just wide enough for the fingers to fit through.
This guitar has less detuning than other, more sophisticated, guitars that I have owned.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 10:28 pm
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Lee, your post reminds me of some thoughts I’ve had concerning the Fender 400, 800,1000,2000 models. The 400 and 2000 I owned had zero detuning, but let’s review the overall design:
-the changers didn’t have an axle; they sat on a knife-edge...if my memory is correct
-the wooden top/soundboard was about 1-1/4†thick—tough to cause any flexing
-the wooden top sits on a very sturdy metal frame that has cross braces—really adds to rigidity
-the cable/pulley system avoided any downward stress when the pedals were pressed
**If I understand the pics of the Sho-Bud built Fender pedal guitars I’ve seen I’m VERY curious about two things:
-If the same changer style above was utilized how do they sound? Seems like there would be some substantial string energy transferred to the soundboard ...maybe similar to a Push-Pull..?? Or, it wasn’t anything special, or other builders didn’t adopt the design due to potential patent infringement problems..???
-How much detuning is experienced—if any? Those guitar cabinets appear to be more similar to others on the market—not the same thickness soundboard and metal frame, so the cabinet might be prone to flexing and contribute to some detuning..??
I need to get some sleep...lol
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2020 11:44 pm
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| MSA had a similar set up to the Remington, It had a thin piece of metal between 2 fingers, Except it hooked to the bar between the changer cutout and the pickup cutout. It had 2 screws to hold it. |
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Dave Stroud
From:
Texas
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Posted 21 Mar 2021 1:09 pm
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The axle brace is an cool and interesting idea. I wonder how much detuning can be resolved by choosing a stiffer steel alloy (one with a higher modulus of elasticity).
I'm not sure what kind of steel my Franklin changer has. A common alloy for 5/8" dowel pins on McMaster Carr is 4140. M2 tool steel is the stiffest they sell. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 21 Mar 2021 1:34 pm
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| Dave Stroud wrote: |
".....I wonder how much detuning can be resolved by choosing a stiffer steel alloy (one with a higher modulus of elasticity).
I'm not sure what kind of steel my Franklin changer has. A common alloy for 5/8" dowel pins on McMaster Carr is 4140. M2 tool steel is the stiffest they sell. |
Hi Dave, I think you're confusing stiffness with some other properties (hardness, toughness, tensile strength, yield strength, elongation, fatigue strength) as all steels have approximately the same stiffness.
This is a common misconception when it comes to steel and other metals. |
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Dave Stroud
From:
Texas
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Posted 21 Mar 2021 2:47 pm
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| I was comparing young's modulus between steels, which theoretically varies a few GPa (and is in essence the measurement of stiffness). But I'm in the dark for how meaningful that difference is without knowing how much deflection 6-8 cents amounts to. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2021 7:17 am
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On Emmons LeGrande III, there is a changer axle brace that pushes the axle from the opposite direction. 
Erv |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 22 Mar 2021 7:26 am
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Young's Modulous of Elasticity is what I'm refering too as well. All steels fall within a very narrow range and a change in steel alloy for a given changer pivot axle length and diameter would have minimal if any measurable results. Increased diameter and/or extra support are the only ways to gain any significant stiffness in this usage.
FYI on the new Sierra's I use separate pivot axles for each finger, they are 3/32" diameter and are supported within .005" of the changer fingers. The amount of deflection, or bending in this configuration is minute if any. |
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