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Topic: E9 Tuning for playing with only Keyboard |
Terry Skaggs
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 4:15 pm |
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Sorry for a newbie question in advance....my music partner and I have been playing, she on guitar and me on my Mullen Discovery and have had some great success with the sound. She recently had hand surgery and now has to play keyboard while rehabilitating her hand. I've noticed that the steel sounds slightly out of tune when playing it and she plays her keyboard...it's electronic and I'm sure it's not tempered tuned. So my question is should I use a different tuning when not playing with a full band...currently im using the peterson strobostomp and use the OE9 presets which the folks at Mullen recommended. Should I use a straight 440 tuning untempered until she gets back on guitar??? Thanks again for any advice. BTW havent noticed this when playing with backing tracks from variety of sources...
_________________
Beard E-model, Martin D-28 CW, Mullen Discovery, Kemper Profiler,Bose L1 Compact |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 6:09 am
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Terry, before anybody else jumps on it, I'll point out that a keyboard *is* temper tuned. It's tuned to Equal Temperament (ET) which means that basically all the notes are equally out of tune. The EQU setting on your Peterson tuner would get you there. Many of us find that the steel loses some of it's sweetness when tuned to ET. You'll sound in tune with the keyboard, but when playing alone, you may sound out of tune to yourself.
There are a couple of alternate approaches to using ET. The first I would try....because it's the simplest... is the SE9 tuning. You see, with the OE9 tuning, the E's are tuned to ET or "0" offset, and all the other notes are varying degrees of flat. Some of your notes end up being radically flatter than the keyboard. SE9 is essentially the same tuning as OE9, except the whole reference is raised 9.8 cents. That means half of your notes are a bit sharper than the keyboard's ET and half are a little flat. Your guitar will still be in tune to itself, and out of tune with the keyboard, but no individual note will be really far off.
Another approach is to experiment with tuning closer to ET. Take the notes that are the farthest from ET (G#, C#, D#, F) and split the difference.
Last edited by Tommy Mc on 16 Sep 2020 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 9:21 am
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| Quote: |
| ...Many of us find is that the steel loses some of it's sweetness when tuned to ET. You'll sound in tune with the keyboard, but when playing alone, you may sound out of tune to yourself. |
I've never understood why a Steel tuned to match a Keyboards tuning sounds out of tune when played by itself???
When I play any chord on a Keyboard by itself it sounds perfectly in tune.
What gives  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 11:38 am
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[quote="Pete Burak"]
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When I play any chord on a Keyboard by itself it sounds perfectly in tune.
What gives |
ET is not consistent. It's a "compromise tuning", where you detune things to make them sound acceptable with other instruments, and with the instrument itself. Instruments of fixed pitch are normally tuned with some variation of of ET. But ET, by itself, isn't "perfect", because our westernized ears prefer the beatless note combinations of JI. Instruments of variable pitch, like steel, violin, trombone, etc., can play JI. That's just the way it is.
Black looks like black...until you compare it to another "shade" of black. Last I heard (from a famous car painter), there are about 53 different shades of "black". |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 1:14 pm
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I still don't get it (shorry!)
Keyboards don't ever sound out of tune to me when played solo.
When I tune a Steel to be in tune with a Keyboard, and then play it solo, it sounds out of tune to me. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 3:29 pm
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Keyboards have a rapid decay which reduces the pain to a tolerable level. The steel is all about sustain, and squeezing the last drop out of a dissonance is ear-destroying.
BTW, folks who decry JI as unworkable pie-in-the-sky are closer to it than they think, at least closer to it than ET.
Donny is correct that instruments of variable pitch can play JI, although as a trombonist I would go further and say that's all they can do. A brass section couldn't play in equal temperament if you asked it to. All brass instruments are of variable pitch, not just the slide trombones, and they're all in the business of eliminating beats.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 4:02 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Keyboards have a rapid decay which reduces the pain to a tolerable level. The steel is all about sustain, and squeezing the last drop out of a dissonance is ear-destroying. |
Yes, indeed. Also, we've only ever heard keyboards and 6-string guitars tuned to ET, so we've become accustomed to their slight out-of-tune nature and have accepted it as 'in tune.' So much so, that if it's not ET we think it is out.
Meanwhile, the entire history of pedal steel guitar performance and recording has been largely tuned to JI (or some sweetened tuning) rather than ET. So, we're accustomed to hearing it that way -- and think ET sounds wrong. Maybe it would be different if we had only ever heard steels tuned to ET.
When you play a steel tuned to ET along with keyboards and 6-string guitars, their also being tuned that way somewhat masks the 'yuck' factor you get when playing an ET steel solo, so it's acceptable. But it's not necassarily the "sweetest" sound you could be adding to the mix. There's a trade-off involved. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 5:11 pm
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In the real world, what works best for me is to start with my tuner at 442, I's and V's straight up and others sweetened by ear. It's the thirds that give the most problem. By starting high, you get your thirds and the piano thirds a chance to be a little more forgiving. If that's not enough, start at 443, anything to get you closer to agreeing. You're never going to get all the way there, but the ear will forgive sharpness quicker than flatness. Go back and read the first line again, the part about FOR ME. Everyone has their own system.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 7:04 pm
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All modern digital pianos have alternative tunings built in, one i've heard mentioned is WerckMeister/ KirnBerger but I only flipped thru the menu on my Yamaha once, never really tried it, you should check your manual.
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 7:45 pm
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Timbre has a lot to do with how well the frequencies blend and 'get along'. So its not surprising that the electronic keyboard is not helping the steel to sound good, regardless of temperment and tuning discrepancies between the two instruments.
Also could be that with guitar, there are inevitably more slight inconsistencies in the tuning and it blends better with the steel. I'd be interested to hear about your results if she played acoustic piano,which would have a more imperfect, organic sound and probably work quite well with steel even if you are tuning closer to JI and the piano is tempered.
You might want to explore an approach that's in between JI and ET like many players do. I find if I tune the beats out completely, I end up intonatiing the 3rds/6ths closer to ET with micro slants to sound more in tune with what's happening, but if I tune totally straight up I end up compensating in the other direction, so I've found a system that allows for flexibility of intonation and it works well in most settings and solo. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 7:58 pm
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| Tuning aside, is this more noticeable when you’re both playing in the same range? Typically in a band one of you would lay out or play rhythm when the other is playing fills, supporting each other and staying out of each other’s range, to avoid the perceived tuning conflicts. Just a thought. |
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Jon Voth
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 8:29 pm
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Yes of course tune to ET. If playing only with keyboard then every note you play with her should match (minus any cabinet drop stuff).
As a guitar player, I'm always out of tune like a piano, but we get used to it. You have to because you can't bend notes. As a brass player (in an ensemble) everyone adjusts on the fly so every chord sounds just. And a PSG can sound just because we take the chord with us with the bar.
On a related note, recently with Billy Cooper, he promoted always tuning to ET on the pedal steel in a band for said reasons (I still prefer the Peterson tunings). He mentioned that Buddy Emmons switched to this later in his life/career.
Was he right about Buddy and equal temp? |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 8:50 pm
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| Jon Voth wrote: |
| Was he right about Buddy and equal temp? |
Not exactly. Buddy claimed he moved to ET... before pointing out that he always flattened his thirds a little bit. But how much? I stumbled on a post on the old forum archive the other day where he said he tuned them to 438. That's 8 cents flat, which is actually closer to JI than it is ET!
Sorry, Mr. Emmons. You're the greatest, but that isn't turning to ET if you make the tweak that is the main characteristic of JI and go more than halfway in that direction.
So like so many of us, he tuned in the middle ground between the two extreme ends of the spectrum and landed on a sweetened tuning that was neither pure ET or JI.
And yet he often (confusingly) referred to this middle ground as "tuning to ET." That's spawned a thousand arguments on the Forum arguing in favor of ET because "that's what Buddy did." But it's only what Buddy did if you leave out the most critical little detail. In the end, the list of iconic steel players who tune to straight ET is mighty thin. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 16 Sep 2020 11:08 pm
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It is interesting that these threads about tuning go on for miles but there is minimal discussion about using just Intonation in your playing and using equal temperment.
As Jon pointed out we have the ability to use pure tuning.
I dont think its always appropriate to apply it all the time though.
These threads read as though once you've tuned the open strings you're locked into a given temperament which is true to extent, but playing in tune and tuning are two separate things.
I was watching some string quartet coaching videos a while ago and the facilitator was discussing with each player which phrases to intonate closer to ET and which harmonic passages to tune the beats out of, and so on. It was really interesting and ear opening.
It really put into perspective that these tuning systems are tools to use given the musical moment at any given time. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 1:15 am
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What Andrew says about string quartets is true all round.
An intelligent trombone player will listen to the harmony and try to figure out whether his next note is going to be the third of a major chord, in which case starting it in a slightly flat position is a good gamble. If he wants to up his game, just fifths are very slightly below even ones.
Going back to what Clyde said, steel players who favour natural intervals are only ever going to be called flat (it's those thirds that don't sell) and tuning generally a touch bright is a simple solution as the ear is more tolerant of sharpness than flatness. From what I've read on this forum over the years, A=442 seems to be almost an industry standard.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 7:48 am
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| Peter Freiberger wrote: |
| Tuning aside, is this more noticeable when you’re both playing in the same range? Typically in a band one of you would lay out or play rhythm when the other is playing fills, supporting each other and staying out of each other’s range, to avoid the perceived tuning conflicts. Just a thought. |
Yes. What kind of music you are playing and how you are playing it is just as important as whatever tuning approach you are taking. Classical-folk-jazz-country, all involve different approaches. Bends and slides, vibrato, moving voices of 3 and 4 note chords versus playing single notes, long sustained notes - all the great sounding things pedal steel is made for - are possible cause for intonation wars.
In my rookie year on steel, I had an incident with a mandolin player where we accidentally both kicked off a single note intro. It was the sourest thing you ever heard. We looked at each other with that “holy crap you are REALLY out of tune, man!†look on our faces. On break we each checked our tuning, which was bang on for both of us. It was my initiation into the world of bar compensation, and staying out of another player’s way. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 9:20 am
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To the OP - you say that when playing with guitar, the steel sounds fine, but with a (I assume electronic) keyboard, it sounds off. Do your chords sound good without the keyboard in the mix, open and with the bar? Do the keyboard's chords sound good alone?
Anyway - it's your ears that are telling you it's off, and I think it's your ears that can lead you to a successful solution. But to analyze the situation a bit -
Guitars tuned with a standard electronic tuner are generally tuned pretty close to equal temperament with A=440Hz. However, that is subject to the accuracy of the tuner, the skill of the player, and also there are potential differences with bridge/nut intonation and so on. And none of that takes into account how the player plays.
Unless you're talking about a pretty sophisticated electronic keyboard - tuning-wise, you get what you get. I think they tend to veer to pretty straight equal temperament, but I've checked quite a number with a tuner and they can vary somewhat. And FWIW, a well-tuned piano is generally not tuned to pure ET, but has a stretch tuning that gets sharper as notes get higher.
But the bottom line is that both guitar and keyboard are generally considered to be fixed-pitch instruments that veer closer to ET than most pedal steel players use.
I've played with keyboard players quite a bit. If I sound in tune by myself and out-of-tune with another player, the usual issue is that our pitch centers don't match. Usually this is because one of us is, overall, noticeably sharp or flat to the other. With a lot, if not most keyboards, there is nothing they can do about their pitch center - OK, some do have the ability to move the tuning a certain number of Hz up or down. But I generally treat keyboards as absolutely fixed-pitch instruments and I (and the rest of the band if applicable) needs to adjust to them. Playing with acoustic piano or something like a Hammond B3, that may be critical - they can be significantly off, depending on how they're maintained. Serious professional keyboardists have to keep their instruments well maintained, but this isn't necessarily true in a casual playing situation.
So I generally try to find their pitch center and move my tuning up or down so that, to my ears, it sounds right. It's possible to compensate a little bit with the bar, but that can get really annoying if the keyboard is significantly off. I have occasionally played with a piano that was seriously flat and found it very hard to compensate without getting close to the piano pitch center.
Personally, I can't tolerate absolute ET on pedal steel - the thirds beating just sounds bad to me on long, sustained chords. They stick out to me even in a full band context. Played with solo guitar or keyboard, I think that is even more noticeable.
I also agree on staying out of the range of the other player. I think that's good advice, regardless of tuning method. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 10:14 am
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I think over the years, the tables have been turned on us. Was that old upright piano in the Jim Beck Dallas studio ever in tune? (Lefty Frizzelle recordings). I think one of the contributing factors to steel falling somewhat out of favor in modern recordings is that a lot of the present day producers and arrangers are keyboard players and we never sound in tune to them.
I do a LOT of recording, mostly minor league stuff and if I am ever challenged on my tuning, it's by a keyboardist producer. I'll be going along nicely and say the tune is in C and "click", "Your E note is out of tune". It'll be when it's the third. And yes, I can hear it myself, but I can never find the perfect remedy, because when I sharp it, it makes my skin crawl.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Terry Skaggs
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 5:09 pm
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I so appreciate all the advice and counsel on tuning the pedal to the keyboard......Still experimenting to get it dialed in......we play a variety of different music so not just country...some slow pop ballads as well. My partner said that its sounds better already but I think i still have some more experimenting to do. I sure appreciate the help.
_________________
Beard E-model, Martin D-28 CW, Mullen Discovery, Kemper Profiler,Bose L1 Compact |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 9:35 pm
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My method for getting in tune with other players/instruments has been... Record everything we play together, listen to the playback, and troubleshoot/tweak my tuning/playing until the out of tune segments sound good.
Make my own tuning chart of all tuning updates for all pedals/levers so I can quickly/silently tune up for this gig.
It helps to have recordings of the songs without Steel, so you can play along and get all your pedal/lever tweaks and tuning chart worked out in privacy. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Sep 2020 8:01 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
I still don't get it (shorry!)
Keyboards don't ever sound out of tune to me when played solo.
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Okay, let's see how this sounds to you. Here's a world-class pianist playing on a world-class piano. (And you can bet your bippy that piano's been recently tuned.) Listen to his playing between the 9:00 to 11:00 mark and tell me if you hear the dissonances, even on single notes. (If you can turn up the treble on your device, it will help to hear them.) I suppose it's because he's holding tones and not playing a lot of loud chordal harmonies with the left hand that I notice them, but I'm cursed with a sensitive ear, and this just grates on my psyche, especially when he forcefully strikes the notes, and they slowly drift back down (closer to in-tune).
I would imagine that the piano string's rapid decay, along with them being struck with a soft hammer, also helps to mask some of the dissonances that might otherwise be more glaring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9LCwI5iErE |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 18 Sep 2020 8:45 am
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I liked the vid!
But still, what typically happens is...
When I play another guys Steel who tells me it is tuned straight up, three note chords sound out of tune to me.
When I play Lean On Me in C on an electric piano using three note chords with both hands, it sounds fine to me.
When I go home and play Lean On Me using three note chords on my Steel it sounds in tune to me.
I am pretty sure I am going to play a friend's Steel who tunes straight-up later today.
I will try it again!  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Sep 2020 9:53 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Okay, let's see how this sounds to you. Here's a world-class pianist playing on a world-class piano. (And you can bet your bippy that piano's been recently tuned.) Listen to his playing between the 9:00 to 11:00 mark and tell me if you hear the dissonances, even on single notes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9LCwI5iErE |
I don’t hear the dissonance, but I have no reason to believe it does not exist. And no it’s not just the hearing loss in my battered old eardrums. The 2 or 3 bandmates I have worked with over 45 years who have had the curse of perfect pitch probably could hear what you’re hearing as plain as day. I hear the beats when something is out of tune if that’s what I am concentrating on. Usually, unless something is dramatically off to the point that it is distracting, I am just listening (and/or playing) and trying to enjoy the music. I accept a certain degree of imperfection, especially if I am otherwise enjoying the performance.
Great video, btw. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Sep 2020 12:50 pm
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It's just a piano, that's how they sound. And I'm not sure what is meant by single-note dissonance, unless the piano tuner has failed to get each group of three strings exactly in tune. I don't know if they deliberately brighten the sound that way. Somebody on the forum is a piano tuner - maybe they can let us into the secret.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 18 Sep 2020 1:29 pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9LCwI5iErE
The triad played at 9:19 does not sound really good to my ears. It is definitly not JI and I dont think it is spot on ET either. It could be a result of how that particular piano is stretch tuned. If that same triad was played chromatically up or down, showcasing the 11 other triads of the same type we would probably hear that some of them sounded more spot on or pleasant than the others.
What I like about Equal temperament is that everything is equally "out of tune" which then make it easier to know where those notes that is offset from ET is gonna be found 
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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