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Topic: First pedal steel. Talk me out of s-12 + Johnny Cox 13 Uni. |
Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 10:01 am |
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Just to be clear I'm looking at buying an S-12, not Johnny's s-12.
So I'm wanting something that sort of straddles the pedal and non-pedal world. Swing (western and not), Hawaiian, jazz, Allman type major blues stuff, and country. Not really hung up on imitating recordings or doing covers. Want to be able to sit down as I can on 6 string, be given a key and changes and go to town without having 2 seperate tunings to deal with.
So far just at a glance there is a CBbCEGACE for Hawaiian stuff. All the Tom Morrell e13 intervals are there. A good portion of a B11 tuning (half step up). Not to mention all the e9 & c6 pedal changes.
Any glaring reasons aside from lack of learning materials to avoid it?
Last edited by Dustin Rhodes on 10 Sep 2020 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Aaron Johnson
From:
Lemoore, CA
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 10:27 am
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It's a brilliant tuning. I was an early adopter and a new steel player. For me, I couldn't wrap my head around it using available learning material and translate it well to the tuning. In short, I gave up and went to a standard E9. Now I'm working my way through courses and I haven't given up.
If you have a great understanding of theory, can sight read and translate available material to this tuning, then I can see no problem with it.
Mr. Cox is said to be able to play anything put in front of him in a very short period of time and is himself an exceptional player with many decades of experience. I will attempt it again, when I have the basics down, and have a much better understanding of cord theory and am able to translate it to the steel.
Hope this helps some.... |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 10:28 am
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| Dale Rottacker wrote: |
| I'd be all over that in a second if I didn't already have 2 new D10's coming... I've seen this guitar up close and personal and it is STUNNING... and what Johnny was getting out of it both Country Jazz and Swing was like this COULD BE the Holy Grail of Tunings ... I'm Stunned that its still available... Jump Dustin JUMP!!! |
Oh I wouldn't be buying Johnny's. It's gorgeous but well beyond my budget. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 10:43 am
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Go for it.
Historically both the 9th and 6th intervals couldn't be had on a single neck. Most PSG players had grown up with the development of the instrument. In the 50's most were playing C6 then along came Emmons with his E9 chromatic tuning. Hence the double neck standard.
But lets move to the 80's - triple raise and triple lower mechanisms became available and it is possible to get both on one neck. Now in the millenium the sky is the limit with changers as has been illustrated with the Excel guitar and it's E9/C6 (not B6) tuning change lever.
I embraced the U12 in 1982 and have never regretted it. I recently borrowed an Emmons PP double neck to see what all the fuss was about. Sure, it sounds great but so does my Infinity U12. Not only that I can get to all the intervals in the midst of a solo. I don't have to throw a switch and move my hands to a different neck. I can also do spits whereby a full step raise can be combined with a half step lower to provide a net 1/2 step raise. I also don't ever have to reach under the guitar to tune a change. My back loves my single 12 too. Nope, Push Pull double neck is the past and is not for me.
I see no reason for a newbie to buy a double neck pedal steel. If you don't want 12 strings, buy an Excell single 10 and with the flick of a lever completely change every string pitch if yo so desire. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 10:48 am
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| I have seen and heard Johnny Cox play that steel several times. It is killer. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 4:59 pm
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another thread about starting out on Johnny C D13, universal, extended e9 (I thing I would recommend 10 string e9 and skype lessons, will keep you occupied awhile...
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353398
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 10 Sep 2020 6:37 pm
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| I guess I just don't quite understand the argument to start on e9 when so many who try to move to universal say they can't get past being used to the E9 set up. |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 6:18 am
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I started on a D12 4 1/2 years ago and decided to move to a U12 about a year and a half in. I'm very happy with having done that as I often like to mix and match C6 and E9 style voicings within the same solo or even just when chording. The weight was also a consideration.
However, I do know there are changes I'll never be able to put on the thing that you could get with a fully loaded D10 or D12, and I already have quite a few splits to deal with when I need to tune. But for me and my goals, it's perfect.
- Slim
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 6:56 am Questions first:
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| Dustin Rhodes wrote: |
| Just to be clear I'm looking at buying an S-12 |
What are you playing now? Any pedal experience at all?
| Quote: |
So I'm wanting something that sort of straddles the pedal and non-pedal world. Swing (western and not), Hawaiian, jazz, Allman type major blues stuff, and country. Not really hung up on imitating recordings or doing covers. Want to be able to sit down as I can on 6 string, be given a key and changes and go to town without having 2 seperate tunings to deal with.
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 Being able to "sit down and go to town" has more to do with how good a player you are, and less to do with what kind of guitar you're using.
| Quote: |
So far just at a glance there is a CBbCEGACE for Hawaiian stuff. All the Tom Morrell e13 intervals are there. A good portion of a B11 tuning (half step up). Not to mention all the e9 & c6 pedal changes.
Any glaring reasons aside from lack of learning materials to avoid it? |
The only one I could think of is that it's just not that popular. Probably less than 1 in 20 players is using a 12-string - in any configuration. You probably know that straight guitar is easier to learn because so many people are using the same thing, a 6-string. You can play anyone's guitar with equal aplomb. But I look at 12-string steels in the same way I look at 8-string straight guitars. Sure, there are lots of them out there, but they're just not as popular.
All that said, it's your decision as to what you play. Good luck with whatever you choose! |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 7:21 am Re: Questions first:
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Dustin Rhodes wrote: |
| Just to be clear I'm looking at buying an S-12 |
What are you playing now? Any pedal experience at all?
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Only lap steel experience. 20 years on bass and guitar plus playing trombone through college in jazz band. |
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 8:27 am
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I would say “go for it!”. Almost everything I’ve figured out regarding my pedal steel preferences has been learned the hard way. If I would not have tried and failed with various setups, I would never have realized what I really like.
You may have to do a bit of instrument “horse trading” along the way if something doesn’t pan out, but you will learn and grow from the experience! |
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Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 3:20 pm
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Just do it! A 12 string with Johnny Cox’s copedent or anything else you think will work for you.
I played lap steel for years and swore I would never go to pedals... until some one gave me a Fessenden Six Shooter. I got a Carter S12 from the forum and put Zane King’s copedent on it because it had a C# right where I expect it to be. I like E13. I’ve since changed the copedent to a more traditional universal without changing the base tuning.
When I asked for advice here I was told I shouldn’t do it because it’s not the way it’s done. It’s worked fine for me.
Unless you want to play an existing repertoire the same as everyone else, do whatever you want. |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:30 am
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| Fred wrote: |
Just do it! A 12 string with Johnny Cox’s copedent or anything else you think will work for you.
I played lap steel for years and swore I would never go to pedals... until some one gave me a Fessenden Six Shooter. I got a Carter S12 from the forum and put Zane King’s copedent on it because it had a C# right where I expect it to be. I like E13. I’ve since changed the copedent to a more traditional universal without changing the base tuning.
When I asked for advice here I was told I shouldn’t do it because it’s not the way it’s done. It’s worked fine for me.
Unless you want to play an existing repertoire the same as everyone else, do whatever you want. |
Thanks for this. Yeah I'm probably as big or bigger fan of the western swing non-pedal players as I am any pedallers. Im also a huge fan of Marty Stuart and look at how much he gets out of a single pull on 6 string. |
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Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 10:55 am
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| Dustin Rhodes wrote: |
| Fred wrote: |
Just do it! A 12 string with Johnny Cox’s copedent or anything else you think will work for you.
I played lap steel for years and swore I would never go to pedals... until some one gave me a Fessenden Six Shooter. I got a Carter S12 from the forum and put Zane King’s copedent on it because it had a C# right where I expect it to be. I like E13. I’ve since changed the copedent to a more traditional universal without changing the base tuning.
When I asked for advice here I was told I shouldn’t do it because it’s not the way it’s done. It’s worked fine for me.
Unless you want to play an existing repertoire the same as everyone else, do whatever you want. |
Thanks for this. Yeah I'm probably as big or bigger fan of the western swing non-pedal players as I am any pedallers. Im also a huge fan of Marty Stuart and look at how much he gets out of a single pull on 6 string. |
If you’re coming from a western swing perspective you should check out out Bob’s D6 copedent https://b0b.com/wp/about-b0b/bobby-lees-current-copedents/
It covers a basic E9, but in D, and a more complete C6, also in D. And he does it all in 10 strings with 6pedals and 6 knees |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 1:23 pm
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I agree with Fred (of course!). If you're not already entrenched in E9th, the D6th should come to you easily. My 2nd LKV isn't strictly necessary - I rarely use it.
Here's the 8-string it evolved from. Coming from non-pedal, it's probably a bit easier to understand. Ignore the low G to A on p1. That's the only real weirdness. I thought I'd need it, but I didn't really.
<center>
</center>One unexpected bonus was the actual B11 tuning with LKR+P5 on the middle 6 strings. "Sand" finally sounded right. On the 10-string, it's p5+p6.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jamie Howze
From:
Boise, ID
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 2:47 pm
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After nearly 20 years of playing E9/B6 I switched to the D13 last fall. I had always liked the idea of a universal tuning but E9/B6 was never quite what I wanted it to be. I wanted one big instrument but having tuning modes, especially in different keys, feels to me more like a double neck alternative than a single unified tuning.
I like the concept and implementation of the D13. The open tuning alone is great. There is a good selection of power chords on the bass end for more aggressive sounds and more D9 and D6 possibilities than I'll ever begin to learn. I like having a dedicated 'D' ('C' on D13) and missed it on the E9/B6.
If I were a beginner I would jump on this tuning having no muscle memory to unlearn. With any universal tuning you will have to learn to translate from E9 or C6 instruction material, but it is no more difficult (and in some cases easier) to translate to D13 than E9/B6.
I use b0b's version for U12 7X5. The jury is still out on second string tuning and changes. |
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