Theory

Clark Doughty · From: KANSAS

OK I'M GETTING INTO TRYING TO LEARN CHORD THEORY. I HAVE A LISTING OF THE STRING INTERVALS ON E9, LIKE 9TH, MAJ 7TH, 3RD, FOOT, ETC. NOW ON THE PEDAL DOWN POSITION A/B I SEE INTERVALS LISTED FOR EACH STRING BUT SINCE THE A/B PEDALS ONLY AFFECT 4 STRINGS, 3/6 & 5/10 HOW DOES THE PEDAL DOWN POSITION CHANGE THE INTERVALS ON THE OTHER 6 STRINGS? REMEMBER NOW I'M A NOVICE AT THIS THEORY THING......CLARK

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Great question. Think of intervals as distances. Like all distances, they are measured from some fixed starting point (or from some specific note, in music).

You asked about the AB chord position. If you were starting out in the no-pedals open E9 position, you were probably using the E note as your 'fixed' root reference note. That would be string 8 (or 4). All of the other string's intervals (or distances) were measured from that point and you may have learned what interval was on each string in that chord position.

But when you push down AB pedals to form an A chord, the "A" note becomes the new fixed reference point that all of the other strings are measured against.

That "A" note now appears on strings 6 and 3 (with B pedal down). The other string's intervals are now measured from that note. So all of their intervals will be different than they were before when you were in open E position and measuring them from the E note.

So in pedals-down, you have the basic 3-note 'triad,' the A-Major chord on strings 6-5-4 (see the chart below. That's the Root-3rd-5th tones, which is the recipe for a major chord).

F#
D#
A
E = 5th
C# = 3rd (A-pedal down)
A = Root (B-pedal down)
F#
E
D
C#

Here's the rest of the strings. This is what you have on each of the 10 strings with AB pedals down...these are the intervals measured from the A note on the 6th or 3rd string:

F# = 6th
D# = #4
A = Root (B-pedal down)
E = 5th
C# = 3rd (A-pedal down)
A = Root (B-pedal down)
F# = 6th
E = 5th
D = 4th
C#= 3rd (A-pedal down)

That vanilla major chord is the basis that you start adjusting to form other types of "A chords," like A-minor or A7 or whatever.

For example, to turn that A-Major into an A6 chord and play some western swing, the recipe for a 6th chord is 1-3-5-6. So you just need to add a 6th interval to the basic 1-3-5 triad (you'll now have a 4-note chord).

In this case, you could include string 7 (or 1) to your regular grips to play A6, like strings 7-6-5-4.

See the chart above to verify that the 6th tone appears on the 7th string (but only while in this AB-pedal chord position. Intervals move around to other strings when you go to other types of chord positions like Open or A+F... which is what your original post was really asking). Smile

That's the theory to play an A6... practically speaking, you may not have 4 picks to play a 4-note chord, so you can play a 'partial' chord (leave out a tone) and hit, say, strings 7-6-5 with AB pedal down. Still sounds like an A6 chord.

Also note: the order of the notes in that A6 chord with string 7 would be, viewing it low to high, tones 6-1-3-5. But any order of tones (or 'voicing' or 'inversion') is legal as long as it fits the song. It can still be considered an A6 chord as long as the notes are all there somewhere.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Tucker, the term “fixed reference point” is the key to your explanation, which was very good for laying out chord structure.

Another way of determining intervals in a given pedal position is to assign each string as a reference. For example, in AB, the “distance” between string 5 and string 4 is a minor third. From 4 to 3 is a perfect fourth, 10 to 9 is a half step, etc.

This may be getting a little weedy, but I believe it is important to understand for both melodic playing and for inverted chord grips. In AB, string 10 is indeed a low register major 3rd of the chord on strings 10-8-6-5-4-3, but the interval from string 10 to the root of the chord on string 6 is minor 6th.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Absolutely.

That's the ultimate layer to learn about intervals, picking any string as the reference point and calculating the other strings off of it.

If that level of detail is presented to a person new to theory, I think none of it penetrates. It's 3-D chess when they're learning checkers.

I'm a self-taught street theory person, so I teach others in order of useability, moving from simple to complex. Also, I start with chords and work backwards to scales and intervals. It's not how it's usually taught, but it makes sense to get people playing a bit, and then feed them new info on a 'need to know it to play something' basis. Theory only really 'takes' for most people if it's used to solve an actual musical problem they have. I can't tell you how many times I've read some theory (but didn't use it in my playing) and then forgot it three days later...

We teach kids to simply talk first, then the alphabet (simple theory), then reading, then grammar (more complex theory). It wouldn't work to start with spelling or grammar -- imaging trying to teach an infant to speak by explaining the rules about verbs -- but that's what some music instructional courses try to do. Too complex and it doesn't 'take.'

I would say that if somebody understood the intervals in the Open and AB chord positions, it's a gateway to the next step.

That could be learning a bunch of chord recipes, and how to get those chords just by understanding what the intervals are that are under your hands in a given chord position. Also, using chords as the mental framework in soloing prioritizes which notes to lean on in a single-note run. This is something Paul Franklin espouses. So I'm all about learning the first stages of theory as it pertains to chords.

Then they can drill down to the next level and understand how chords are really just stacks of third intervals (major or minor third intervals). And then finally, they will arrive at the point of understanding the interval of any two strings, with and without pedals/knees. Someday, I hope to know theory at your level, Fred. I'm working on it...

John Spaulding · From: Wisconsin, USA

With A and B pedals down, the tuning is now an A6th tuning. All intervals are counted from the new tonality "A".

Thinking In Intervals

Downloadable PDF on Intervals

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Looks like Paul’s with you, Tucker.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

That chart is so much easier to read than my goofy one. Thanks for posting, John. And the links to the intervals is good stuff too. The Paul Franklin course has it all dialed...

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

OK yes indeed ya'll are talking the Right stuff. So now; take open G on 3rd fret...using 8th string as your root G note...now you know the intervals to G in open position; now move to next G(easiest) chord position, that is 3 frets up with A pedal down and E's raise half tone; now where is your G note and what are the intervals around it?? Then go to 8th fret with E's just lowered a half Tone; now where is your G note and what are the intervals around it? then you finish with pedals down on 10 fret G chord....yay!!!!
I can actually find a G note on every fret from 3 up to 10 and know the "working intervals" around it on each of those frets..... And to me; that is where we want to go; as it's the speed in knowing those "working intervals" around any position of a chord; makes having a chart thrown in front of you as you are sitting in with a 50 piece orchestra(which I have had to do recording on a Richard Linklater soundtrack with Graham Reynolds Conducting......OUCH....you better know your instrument.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Great topic, Clark, thought I'd share a couple of pages of charts I use to get my E9 students better acquainted with the true nature of their guitar.

These charts are used to teach them my "melody process": simply hearing melodies as scale degrees (Nashville numbers), then finding those scale degrees in the 3 main positions where we play most of our major chords. This is the beginning of "intervallic thinking" that I stress, along with the great Paul Franklin.

Couple of notes: the root notes (1) are circled; and the chord grips are shown to the right of the tab with each string played shown as a scale degree.

This will help you learn more about inversions, and also what where the notes you want to play fall in the grips and positions.
The images here are just JPGs.

Click the link to get both pages as a clean, high res PDF. You can just view them, or feel free to download for home study.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wi62cxw2uy2796/Lesson%209_E9%20101%20QX2018%20v2_Melody%20Process_pp10-11charts.pdf?dl=0

If anyone wants hands-on workshopping of this kind of thing, reach out and let's set up a Skype session!

All best,
John McClung
Pedal Steel Lessons, Casuals, Sessions
Olympia, WA 98512
Email & PayPal fees â€“ steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net
Easy PayPal link: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme2/JohnMcClung
Website â€“ http://steelguitarlessons.com
Skype name: professortwang
Cell & text: 310-480-0717

Enjoy!
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Intervals are the basis of chord tones and scale tones based on chords. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes they’re not. I wish I had learned this very simple concept early on instead of crawling through the weeds to find that 1-5 is a different interval than 5-1. Maybe it’s just semantics, but that’s where we get messed up trying to communicate music theory.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Right, Tucker.
String 7(F#) to string 4(E) is a b7, both ways. But string 4(E) to string 1(F#) is a major 2nd, again both ways. These intervals hold true no matter what chord or scale you are playing because intervals are based purely on pitch.

Clark Doughty · From: KANSAS

WOW!THANKS FOR ALL THE RESPONSES. GUES I ASKED THE WRONG QUESTION. I'M A CHORD THEORY ILLITERATE WHO BASICALLY KNOW THE FOUR CHORD GROUPS, (ROOT,3re & 5th).
I INTENDED TO JUMP IN THE WADING POOL BUT LOOKS LIKE I'M IN THE DEEP END OVER MY HEAD. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP.......CLARK

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

There no wrong questions, Clark. You’ll get this, it’s not rocket science. Good, accurate information, careful study, and putting your knowledge into practice will make it all perfectly clear.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Sounds like you are suffering from information overload Clark.

This is the same thing that happened to me.

With all due respect, theory isn't something you learn all at once then commit to memory. It's a lifetime of study and application.

In chord theory, intervals is where it's at. I don't believe you can ever understand theory unless you understand the intervallic make up of notes. It's just math...and it's not that difficult if you start small with how to build basic chords. You don't need to know where everything is all the time. You just need to break it down in relation to the root.

If you can count, you can practice theory.

Get the Winnie Winston book. Everything you need to know about chord theory and intervals is right there on pgs. 77 and 78.

For a more recent source, the Franklin Method as suggested by John. But pick just one. Too much will just confuse and frustrate you.

Many beginning theory students are overwhelmed by too much information at one time and just throw up their hands in frustration.

I think some of us forget how crooked and complicated our own paths were trying to learn this stuff and we make it much too difficult for a beginning theory student by overloading them with too much.

Take baby steps....then learn how to understand the nature of intervals in chords and how other intervals build other chords or extensions of those.

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