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Topic: I love the tunable split. |
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 10:59 am |
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My older guitars didn't have them. But now that I have a guitar (a Millennium) that does, I am finding new uses for the A pedal/B-Bb lever combination every day.
The way I'm using it the most is in the A pedal R knee lever position, Kicking in the B-Bb lever turns it into a minor chord 4 frets up (F on the 4th fret becomed Am, C on the 11th fret becomes Em)
I wonder of I can retofit my older guitars to be able to do this.
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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site
[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 24 November 2006 at 04:51 PM.] |
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Nathan Delacretaz
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 11:19 am
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| Mike, I've seen this term "tunable split" several times, but never fully understood what it is/does. Will you indulge a novice and give the nickel tour? [This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 24 November 2006 at 11:19 AM.] |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 11:33 am
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If you have a pedal to raise B string a whole step, and a lever to lower a half step, a "tunable split" is the capability to tune A#, C, and C# independently.
I like it too. I don't think I would bother to have a lever that lowers B to A# if it didn't also give me a tunable C.
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 11:46 am
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Further explanation---without the tunable split mechanics, if you tune the combined A pedal raise and lever half-step lower to a C, then if the lever alone tunes to A#, it's only by coincidence. Different gauges of tstrings will yield different results but the chances of being really in tune, combined and alone without added hardware are slim.
I'd forsake the in-tune A# to get the C, if it were an either/or thing. I really like having the tunable option of the Fessenden--the Carter uses a different system (extra rod) and I don't have the spare hole on the 5th string to implement it there although I've got it on the 6th. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 11:57 am
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On all my steels, there is an intonation "problem" on the C (B#) note. The pitch is much higher when you approach the note from above, and lower if you approach it from below. The difference may be 10, or 20 cents, maybe even more.
But it turns out that this "problem" can be exploited to great advantage. The lower pitch works well as B#, for example G# major triad on open strings. And the higher one works well as C, for example A minor triad on openstrings. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 11:57 am
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Nathan, On my older guitars, I have a B to Bb lever, that I find extremelty useful by itself, but when I try to use it in conjunction with the A pedal, the resultant note falls somewhere between C and C#, and is not usable.
The Tunable split allows one to tune that intermediate note.
Never having had one before, I didn't realize what I was missing. It's really a wonderful feature that opens up all sorts of possibilities.
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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 12:23 pm
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| Earnest--yes, I am well familiar with the intonation issues as related to which movement you activate first, the raise, or the lower. Are you saying that you deliberately sequence this in order to get one intonation or the other? (I gather that yes, that is what you're saying.) |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 12:58 pm
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I've tried them, but I kept forgetting how to tune them so I gave up. Regular pulls are all that this CRS-infested brain can remember.
Besides, they never felt all that good to me.
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 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 1:17 pm
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Jon,
Yes, it's not a hard habit to learn. It's a tiny bit awkward to execute the B# on my setup because the lower is on the LKV lever. Usually when I need B#, the G# string is not raised. In other words you have to get some abdomninal exercise lifting heel and toe off the floor before you can hit the A pedal. In may case, I really need to exercise the abdominal musculature, so that is a good thing. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 1:42 pm
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Nathan,
Technically, the tunable split is an additional "stop" (screw) on the pedal travel. The concept is that on an all-pull guitar, a raise and lower on the same string engaged at the same time will "net" the two together. This note is typically not in tune (sharp) and to get it in tune, you need to further lower the "lower" pedal. Now the split (i.e. combined raise and lower) will be in tune, but the stand-alone lower by itself goes too low (i.e. too much pedal travel). So you use the additional stop of the split-tuning feature to stop the stand-alone lower before the end of it's travel, thus putting it in tune.
The most common E9 uses are combining pedal B 6th string G#>A with a knee lever lowering G#->F#, to net a G note. Another use is pedal A raising B>C# combined with knee lever lowering B>Bb, to net a C. Another less frequent use is combining C pedal E>F# with knee lever E>Eb to obtain an F note.
A common non-netting use is a half "feel" stop for lowering string 2 from Eb>D on the way to a C#.
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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 1:57 pm
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| I've tried them, but I kept forgetting how to tune them so I gave up. |
Bobby, first you tune the unaltered string, then the raise, and then the split, using the regular tuning nut at the end plate, Then you tune the lower without the split with the additional tuner located at the top of the changer above the regular ones.
Doug, I had not noticed the problem you mentioned on the Millennium. Maybe it's because I'm so entralled with my new toy that I just didn't notice. Maybe because it's because the Millennium, with it's state of the art changer, works better.
I'll check it out and report back here later today or tomorrow.
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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site
[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 24 November 2006 at 04:50 PM.] |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 2:02 pm
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| It's not a problem; it's a feature! |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 4:45 pm
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Well, I checked. First I stepped on the A pedal and then activated the B-Bb lever, and then I activated the lever first and then stepped on the pedal. I used a tuner to measure any difference in pitch, and there was absolutely none. Not even one cent. Both times the resultant note was a perfectly in tune C natural.
I'm sure it's because the Millennium has a state of the art changer. As the technology improves, so does the way the instrument performs.
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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site
[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 24 November 2006 at 04:47 PM.] |
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Michael Haselman
From:
St. Paul
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 6:11 pm
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Does anyone know if this is possible on my Mullen RP? I've only had it a couple months, and noticed that when I lower the B with A pedal engaged, it's not in tune. I had a Pro I for decades, and this always seemed to work, I never needed to tune it.
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Mullen RP, Webb 6-14E, Peavey NV112, Hilton volume.
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2006 7:09 pm
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| Michael- one way or another- the split is probably available on your Mullen- there are several ways to acheive it~ |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 2:30 am
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Mike . . .
For a tuneable split on String 5, add a pull-rod to the knee that is lowering the string. You can likely use the same puller (bellcrank) that does the lowering.
With this arrangement you end up with both a raise and a lower on the same kneelever.
With the 'added' nylon tuner idle (unscrewed, totally away from the changerfinger), the tuning procedure is -
1-Tune the B with the tuning key.
2-Tune the Raise with the pedals nylon tuner.
3-Tune the Combination Note (with both pedal and knee) with the (pre-existing) nylon tuner on the Kneelever.
4-Finally, with the Kneelever only, the resulting note will be flat, so you will bring it up to pitch by tuning with the nylon tuner on the 'added' pullrod.
Total parts needed = 4 (pullrod, nylon tuner, pull tube and pull pin with setscrew).
A more permanent way is to drill and tap for a hex-head screw through the endpiece that bridges the changer on top of the cabinet. The screw is used to limit the changerfinger as to how far it will allow the string flatten.
~Russ |
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Patrick Laffrat
From:
Gemenos, France
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 5:22 am
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tunable split:
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 5:41 am
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| Quote: |
| A more permanent way is to drill and tap for a hex-head screw through the endpiece that bridges the changer on top of the cabinet. The screw is used to limit the changerfinger as to how far it will allow the string flatten. |
Can older MSA guitars with the double raise double lower changer be modified this way?
Both my older guitars have Tom Bradshaw's conversion inserts on the 5th and 6th strings, so those two are now triple raise single lower, and all 4 holes in the changer already have pull rods in them.
Great illustration Patrick.
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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site
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Colby Tipton
From:
Crosby, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 6:50 am
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Mike,
I think you can do your older MSAs the same way. Years ago a guy I knew did it on a Sho-Bud, he just drilled the holes and tapped them with fine threads and inserted allen head screws. It may or may not work on some guitars because of the changer design. I would check with Reece Anderson on it before I went to drilling and tapping for nothing. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 7:32 am
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From what I've been reading and trying I'm pretty sure if you have a spare raise hole in the changer and somewhere to attach the rod to the lower bellcrank, it'll work (I guess it would be visa-versa in some cases, depending on whether or not the split was naturally sharp or flat). That was the thing that was confusing to me at first - the idea of the rod going from a riase hole to a lower bellcrank.
Mike P - String gages also have a lot to do with it. I tried the 4 splits I have on my GFI without rods, and they were dead-on without rods with some gages, but when I used other gages they weren't. With the gages I prefer to use, I need the rods, which is no big deal. But I don't think it's the changer alone, as it's a balancing act...so string gage will affect it almost assuredly.
The one thing I didn't test is if the string gage of any other string actuated by the same pedal or rod would affect the split.
But I sure agree - Having those 4 extra notes I have is a nice "bonus".
Hey, Doug - if I add a vert does that mean I can stop doing situps? Wonder if I can write it off as a "medical expense"....
;-) |
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Adrienne Clasky
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 8:23 am
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| Hi, Mike. I have that on my Carter U12, the V lever, and I LOVE it! It is great for jazz solos. |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 25 Nov 2006 2:48 pm
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Speaking of tunable splits, how do most of you tune your B pedal and G# to F# lower?
I've got a chart that shows how to tune it, but something just don't sound right when i lower my G# to F# then pedal in my 2 pedal.
Can I tune it to where it will give me a nice 7th when I lower my G# and engage the B pedal? That's what I'd rather have instead of a minor. Somebody help?
BTW- I have a Mullen RP.
Terry
[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 25 November 2006 at 02:50 PM.] |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 5:42 am
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Hi Terry,
I have that change on my Zum and here is the wierd thing about it...If you pedal and then drop the note the split is in tune. If you drop the note and then do the split it is not in tune. I called Bruce about it and he told me that it was the nature of the beast. He suggested changing the sting diameter to a .20 ( I believe but not sure) and that got it closer but still not on the money.
Perhaps there is a way to do this, but I wanted to let you know so you don't go crazy trying to get it to work both ways.
Mark T. |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 7:26 am
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Thanks Mark. I'm goin to check with Ron Elliott. There's a song on his "Just as I am" CD that sounds like he's letting off the B pedal, lowering the G# to F# then bringing back in the B pedal to get a 7th. The name of the song is "Who at my door is standing" But, he may be doing something different also.
terry |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 7:42 am
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| Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the forum or just like to write in it. |
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