BL705 distorting no matter what I do?!

Tim Carlstedt · From: Helsingborg, Sweden

Hi all you helpfull steel colleagues!

No matter what I do, my BL705 pickup is overdriving my amp way too much to make it playable.

Signal chain
Bl705 -> Lil' Izzy Buffer -> Hilton VP -> Little Walter 50w

I've tried going direct to the amp with and without the buffer thinking that it was my VP that was causing the problem.

I've also tried attenuating the signal with a One Control Granith Grey Booster (it both boosts and attenuates). The results is a bit better but the volume then becomes too low so I need to crank the Amp all the way to get any volume.

Nothing is working. I have the red wire of the 705 going to tip and black and bare to ground. White and Green is soldered and isolated away from the circuit.

I have lowered the pickup as much as I can to about 5 mm spacing between strings and coils.

What can I do to lower the signal? When plugging my guitar in, the amp sounds amazing!

Thank you for helping me!

// Tim from sweden
_________________
Tim Carlstedt, Helsingborg, Sweden
--
Fessenden Sd10, Peavey ProFex II, Lil' Izzy Buffer, Fender Steel King, BJS bars.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Turn down the little volume control that's on the bottom of the Hilton pedal. Winking

(I don't know what you mean by "way beyond what is reasonable" when you're referring to the amp volume?)

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Most Lawrence pickups have the white wire to the tip, so the wiring might be incorrect. Also an active volume pedal with a extra buffer may not be a good idea.
_________________
----------------------------------
JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo

Josh Braun · From: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Hi Tim,

No solution for you - but I did want to affirm your experience.

I gig'd a BL 705 for about a year, hearing subtle distortion the whole time, but always thinking I was driving the preamp on my Steelaire or Twin. I wasn't able to mitigate the problem with pickup height at the time - though this might have been a technical problem with getting it low enough (had I been able to do that, perhaps it would have been fine).

Same guitar with a true tone, BL 710, and an old sho bug pickup had no troubles at all. Rig was always steel -> SGBB -> Hilton VP -> Amp.

I ran into another local player who had the exact same experience with his BL 705s.

Anyhow, this pickup obviously works for a lot of setups, so i'm not sure what the problem is/was.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

I will try to give my opinion to help. First--why do you need 2 pre-amps. The Little IZZY is a pre-amp that boosts signal. The Hilton pedal has a pre-amp that boosts signal. Running two pre-amps is redundant. All that running two pre-amps accomplishes is increasing signal strength---it does not improve tone quality. The Little IZZY was designed to be used with the old POT type pedals, and was great used that way. You don't need the Little IZZY with the Hilton pedal.
Donny Hinson is correct about turning down the adjustment marked volume on the bottom of the Hilton pedal. That is--(IF)-- your pedal has the volume adjustment. Donny may not be aware that I eliminated the volume adjustment back in 2008. For pedals built after 2008 the only adjustment on the bottom of pedals is the off point adjustment. The off point adjustment can create too much signal if it is turned too far like a clock turns. Turn the off point adjustment the opposite way a clock turns slightly. The reason I eliminated the volume adjustment on pedals in 2008, is because everyone would crank that adjustment wide open, then wonder why their pedal distorted.
The problem is pretty simple---you are distorting the input of your amplifier with too much signal. The 705 is a humbucking pickup that puts out a lot of signal. The IZZY boosts that signal. The pre-amp in the Hilton pedal boosts the signal even more. The solution is to reduce the signal. If you want to use the Little IZZY, use it with a POT pedal, it was designed for that. If you used the Hilton pedal don't use the Little IZZY, and make sure you have the Hilton adjustment--adjustments set correctly. The 705 has been around for many, many, many years, and used with thousands of Hilton pedals--with zero distortion problems. If you don't understand what I am explaining, think of it this way; How many motors do you need in a car if the speed limit is 60?
If one motor will make the car go faster than 60, why do you need 2 motors? If 2 motors were good, then why not put 5 motors in the car. The Little IZZY is a motor, the Hilton pedal pre-amp is a motor. You have two motors in your car and you are wondering why it is noisy. If someone told you two motors would be good, try a couple more pre-amps in the signal chain and you will get more noise. Hope this information helps.

ajm · From: Los Angeles

I think that it'd be best to take things one stage at a time.
You may have tried a couple of these things already.

You've already tried another guitar with the amp.

I can't find much info on the Lil Izzy.
I'll assume that it does not have a volume control or gain adjustment, and is therefore unity gain.
In that case the signal level going into the Hilton pedal should be the same either with or without the Lil Izzy.
I agree that if you're using the Hilton VP you don't need to also use the Izzy, unless it also has some EQ circuitry going on also.
But if the above is true, it shouldn't hurt.

If the Hilton pedal has a trim adjustment for the input it might be set too high.
It would probably be fine set that way for very low output pickups.
With a high output PSG pickup you might overdrive the input buffer to the Hilton.
In that case, if there is an adjustment try backing it off.

If what you're really over driving is the amp input, you might have a couple of choices (without adding anything else in between).
If there is an input trim on the amp try backing that off.
But if you haven't tried it yet, try plugging into the low gain input if there is one.

If you still have no luck, get a passive volume pedal.
Try it by itself.
Then add the Lil Izzy.
Any luck with either of those two set ups?
If so, you could also try Guitar - Passive VP - Hilton - Amp.
Try varying the settings of the two VPs, alternating between one all of the way on.
Any luck?

One more thing to try: Check the power supplies.
For the Lil Izzy that would be the battery.
For the Hilton that would be the power supply adapter.

If after all of that the problem is still there, I'm out of ideas without looking at your set up in person.

Tim Carlstedt · From: Helsingborg, Sweden

Thank you for your help!

Mr hilton! First of all thank you for reaching out to me and Your VP has worked flawless for me for at least 5 years now. Amazing quality and feel! My pedal has tone and "Off point" and no volume contrl unfortunately.
You are correct that it's the preamp section of my amp that is distorting and not the gear inbetween. I will reconsider my choice of having both my lil izzy and an active pedal....

I have once again tried going BL705 -> George L Cabel -> Input of amp. I'm getting the same amount of distortion. Conclusion it's either the pickup or the Amp.

Then I tried my C6 pickup which is a TrueTone. I lowered the Pickup as much as possible so that i basically have 9 mm (aprox 3/8 of an inch) of gap between strings and pickup. There's still distortion. My conclusion is that swapping the pickup won't help with my problem. the 705 reads 20.3 ohm and the TT reads 17.4. Can it by a bad solder joint? It's pretty fiddly to swap pickups on a carter...

I'm just confused since the setup Bl-705->Little Walter amp is a pretty acknowledged setup that should work just fine. And for playing 6-string guitar it sounds amazing!
_________________
Tim Carlstedt, Helsingborg, Sweden
--
Fessenden Sd10, Peavey ProFex II, Lil' Izzy Buffer, Fender Steel King, BJS bars.

James Holland · From: Alabama, USA

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

So:-

1. The 705 straight into the amp distorts.
2. Regular guitar sounds fine.

A pickup can't develop a fault that causes its output to increase, so it must be the preamp as it should be able to cope with the full output (or you'd never dare to floor the pedal). But why does regular guitar sound fine? From steel guitar we expect a clean sustained sound, but the 6-string decays faster and a bit of dirt doesn't hurt. So it could be that the reservoir cap that's supposed to maintain the preamp rail voltage is leaky or the wrong value.

Just a possible explanation, without knowing what your "great" guitar sound is like.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I'm late to the game in this thread but I'll add my 2 cents.

The Little Walter is the current "in" amp in Nashville. As it works OK with guitar but distorts with steel if the signal is not padded down (attenuated) suggests a possible tube problem in the amp. First thing I would try is a new input tube.

Another thing I would try is a different amp. If you don't have another amp, borrow one from a friend and try that.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Are pedal steel pickups louder just because they're bigger and have more wire in them, or because they're designed to be attenuated most of the time you're playing? Your average pedal position is likely to be around half-way, after all.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Tim, does the amp distort if you crank the volume to 3/4, and pick your steel with the volume pedal set at 1/3 - 1/2?

For reference, I will use a 50 watt amp for steel on a gig where 5 or 10 would do for 6 string guitar.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Tim,
It could be a solder joint. Both those pickups work fine in general with LW amps and every other amp. Have you tried plugging the steel into the 2nd input ? It may be attenuated like Fender amps. Also I would try using a non active pedal like a Goodrich L120.

Keep in mind that all tube amps have a certain level of IM distortion that greatly contributes to the tone. If you fixate on that distortion you can lose more than you gain. That distortion is apparent on a pedalsteel because when you bend closely voiced intervals you hear the difference tone that it generates move. That difference tone is there with a guitar also but is not as obvious.

The classic sound that pedalsteel players actually love often has plenty of distortion in the signal. It is partially why Emmons/Charleton and others got such a warm, full and present tone that blended so well with the other instruments. The fixation on clean and loud has been a huge mistake(in my opinion) that has greatly contributed to the ice pick cringe worthy tone that has eliminated so many steel players from working outside of a very small and shrinking genre of music.

Listen to Paul Franklin. His tone blends so well with other players while being so easy on the ears. He uses LW amps and has a subtle yet audible distortion as a big part of his basic sound. He has had that pleasant subtle distortion in his tone since he started working with Dire Straights.

When people say they like a tube sound they are essentially saying that they like at least some level of distortion.
_________________
Bob

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

I have been having this issue lately as well with a D-10 with 710â€™s. Distortion at any volume on amp, also on direct signal. Has taken me a while to determine it is coming in the signal from the guitar itself & not any other gear - only became really clear to me after a I got a Milkman 300w H&H (used) Tim suggested maybe old tubes Or a worn spot in the volume pot so replaced them but no luck. Thing is I have another s10 with 710â€™s, also a Fessenden, and it is clear as a bell, as are a few other steels.. Pickups on D10 set the same height-wise. Happens on both necks. Another thing I have noticed, with neck selector set to full signal from one neck, I still get a little signal bleeding through from the other - not just mechanical transfer. Thinking bad switch, could that cause distortion in the signal? Itâ€™s like an amp With an attenuators being pushed just a bit into power tube overdrive, subtle but kinda grungy. Playing more lightly does clean it up, but it Is present well within the range of normal picking. . .

Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

The Lil Izzy PLUS has a pot inside to adjust gain. Had one for years and sold it to fellow Fourumite several years ago.

Thanx,
Jim
_________________
Jim Bates, Alvin, Texas
Emmons LeGrand,Sho-Bud Super Pro, SB ProII - E13th,C6th on all. Many Resonator guitars

Mike Holder · Posted 17 Jun 2020 8:39 am

Since weâ€™re trying every avenue, I have also found the George L or Lawrence cables lose solid connection at times in my rack. I cut off an 8th of an inch then reconnected them and things were better. All of these things can be contributing to your issues, troubleshoot the guitar straight into the amp then add things as you go, the weak link should present itself.
_________________
I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! )

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Last year I went across to play at the Aussie steel guitar convention, and played my Zum through Michel Rose's Little Walter PF89 ... using my Telonics volume pedal !! I struck the same issue with distortion too ... turns out that my VP was pushing out probably too much level and this caused the distortion ..... changing it to a Pot pedal removed the issue altogether :-} !!

I'm sure if I had a bit of time to play around with the amp I could have got it sounding good with my Telonics pedal, but the easy fix was just to use a Goodrich 120 !
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases.

Gene Tani · From: Pac NW

Been following since i was going to try a 710, x16 or 705 in Carter. Agreed the area where pickup cables drop down is like mangrove swamp.

I haven't got around to it but you can put quick release clips on p/u's cables and p/u switch wires adn Bill Liscomb's new dogbones and straight pull rods are a lot faster/easier to pull and reconnect if you have to

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=354379

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=342169

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=354435

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Tim, I know this is an old thread but you never replied as to what fixed the problem. I'm having a similar issue with a 705 in a new Justice judge SD10 4x5 I purchased last year. No matter what cables, volume pedal or none and straight to the amp I got distortion. Goodrich 7A buffer new battery, same. Remove buffer, cables to amp, different amps, pickup height it still distorts. I think the pickup has a winding problem. Did you fix yours?

Forum Index > Electronics		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic