Looking for ideas for a shorter lever throw

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Up front: I can and will live with the way my guitar is and the way it has been for a couple of dozen years. I've looked at changing my set up (ideal solution) and have chosen not to. But......

On my all-pull guitars I have a lever with two important (to me) changes on two different strings, completely unrelated to each other. One is a short half step raise. The other is a very long full step lower. These are both heavily used changes.

I would love for the raise to be a short quick flick of the knee. But because of the long lower, the raise doesn't engage until the end of the long throw. I don't know of any way around this. Of course I should have thought of this some time in the early 90's as I was evolving my setup. I didn't.

Has anybody ever engineered a way to front-load a change so that it activates immediately and then just holds steady for the rest of the lever movement? My only ideas involve a stop and a tight spring. The changer finger or something attached to the rod hits a stop and then a spring allows the rod & lever to continue moving. But I can't see this as an acceptable solution because of the extra load this strong spring would put on the lever, making it way too stiff (I would think).

Is this a familiar situation and has anyone ever thought of or seen any other mechanical idea for this? Just because I can't imagine it doesn't mean that someone more clever than I hasn't done so.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

What are the two changes?

The spring/stop idea you mentioned does work, I tried this once as an experiment. It's very simple to set up. The added spring definitely makes the overall pull a bit stiffer, and the early short pull ends up feeling mushy, but it can't hurt to try it out. Everything is a trade-off, depending on what it is and how you use it perhaps you'll find the positive value in the quicker short pull outweighs the negative of the added stiffness.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yeah -- I have little doubt that I could concoct a spring rig like that. But the full step lower on RKR (7th string F# > E) is already as stiff as I can tolerate. It requires discipline to keep it pinned when I'm holding it for longer periods of time.
The raise is 2nd string D (my open tuning) to D#.
As I said, it is an ill conceived pairing but I have nowhere else to put either change and they are totally fundamental to my playing.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

You can get that "hold note while lever moves further" effect I think you want, by adding a split-rod. Can be seriously difficult to balance in that extra rod to "hold" a stable note though, further complicated by the fact that it may have to "go around" the raise rod to reach the lower-scissor. If so, adding a "gear-down" bellcrank may solve the "go around a rod" issue, but depends on the actual PSG how easy or hard it will be to put it all together.

Sort of "springloading a rod" (as you mention) isn't too difficult, if you find space for a stop bracket along the raise-rod. Somewhat like adding a spring-type halfstop in reverse; with the spring on the regular raise-rod. Again, it depends on the PSG how easy it is to make to work.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Georg -- you were probably writing while I was posting. You can see my reasons for not going with the spring (and your description is pretty much how I picture it). Too much increased resistance.
Adding to the difficulties, especially if thinking about the third rod idea, is that the lower is pretty much max'd out, getting the F# > E . I had a hard time setting that up. I can't imagine a third rod not screwing it up royally.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Question: would things improve by moving those changes from a reversing right-moving lever to a direct pull left-moving lever? Or the opposite, moving a LM lever to a RM lever?

You don't specify where your pesky lever is located.

I don't know the answer, so this is a general question about lever pulls and action!

Chime in, all you physics scientists! Smile

Lastly, Jon, that F#>E hange is rather unusual, how are you finding it so essential?
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Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

The extra rod would be on the string 2, not on 7, but adding a lowering compensator like that would only provide a stably-tuned note at the very end of the pull on 2, which is not what you're after. It would wander all over the place in between.

Have you tried using a heavier gauge string on 7 Jon? That should reduce string tension and shorten the required pull, no?

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

If the D to D# is the only raise on that 2nd string there would be a possible solution to have the lowering finger(string 2) already engaged(lowering the string a semitone) and with some mechanical reversing, changing the pullrod(string 2) into a push/releaserod. Then there would be zero extra tension when getting past the returnpoint of the lowering finger. The tension of the 7string pull would have to be sufficient to overcome the tension in the return spring for string 2. Just my thoughts.

B.Erlandsen

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Brent, I knew it wouldn't take long for us be swimming in pedal steel quantum physics! You just put us in the deep end!! Shocked

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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Thanks for the contributions since I last was here.
Some responses:

The lever is RKR #2 (front).

As was mentioned, Lee, the balancing act on the lower with its return spring would be lots of fun, adding a helper spring. I actually did some spring assists on the Fessenden a couple of years ago, just experimenting around, hooking a spring from a screw-eye on an L bracket to the bellcrank. The addition of this new factor to the pull train was dicey. I found that while I could gain a bit of 'power assist' on some raises, it had the potential to cause new problems, especially in positive, consistent returns, same as insufficiently tight lower return springs.

I do lower the 2nd string on another lever. The precision of C#, D & D# are all involved.

The F# > E was a change suggested to me by Robert Randolph after a performance years ago. It is the reverse of a common Sacred Steel change where there are two adjacent E strings and one gets raised to F#. The point is to be able to strum big chords. Since I play enough 'conventional' steel, I would not ditch the 7th string F# but this change gets the F# out of the way of open and AB position inversions. A Zero pedal raises the F# to G#. With the A pedal, it gets the F# out of the way of the A + F inversion (and A pedal minor triads). The 'power chords' that this enables is priceless for some of the gigs I play.

I use a .026 stainless (which I've found to change pitch a little more than nickel in same-brand side to sides). I am trying to remember why I haven't gone to .028. I can't remember! I should.

I think this addresses everything?

Please note that I am not seeking to shoot down ideas.

And also note that there is not actually a problem. I have no disability that makes this any sort of urgent. It's just a little nagging thing where I wish there were a way to make this lever as quick and easy as it would be if it weren't saddled with that long lower. Lots of analysis of my setup keeps coming back to the conclusion that there is no place else to put these changes and the only solutions are mechanical ingenuity or a radical change to my setup which is NOT going to happen.

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Jon, is it possible to have a custom made longer/extended bell crank for the 7th string pull, you could use the quickest pull hole, shorten the throw, especially if you are only moving the other string a half 2nd string?

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Larry, thanks. I've done everything I know to get the best ratios I can on that lower but it is pretty much at the max that the changer can handle, both on my Fessenden and now on my #1, a Williams. That includes fabricating an extra-tall bellcrank. Yep -- tried it. But I encounter the familiar dilemma of reaching the changer's limit and having the pitch begin to raise again right at the end of the throw. Balancing the spring and the leverages and string gauge....I can't find any more efficiency to be had. This also applies to the 6th string lower with a wound string. It takes everything the guitar seems to have including a maximum-length lever throw to get that full step lower.

I'll live.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

This is an interesting setup.
To get the 2nd string to move quick, Then hold the note while the 7th string finishes its lower to note.
If you would hook a L shaped stop to the body of the guitar with the pull rod going through it, With an old Sho-Bud Barrel adjuster on the rod as a stop on the 2nd string at note with an under body adjustment, Then add a compression spring at the bell crank on the rod so the rod could still move while the 7th string is moving on to its note. Would be 1 possibility.

To move the 2nd string quick and then the 7th string catch up will require some type of spring system to achieve the longer move on the 7th string.
Good Luck on a solution and back Happy Steelin.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

A simpler explanation of my first post here.

Step 1: Adjust the 7 string lower to work as intended

Step 2: The spring that pulls this lever back to neutral position need to be able to also lower the 2nd string from D# to D when lever is in neutral position. (The pull rods on string 7 and 2 will have to move in opposite directions) meaning return spring on string 2 need be as loose as possible.

Added bonus, the other lever that lower string 2 to C# will now have a smooth full step lower from D# if used at the same time.

Note: If having additional or other raise levers on string 2 then this will not work.

B.Erlandsen

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

My idea is the same as Bengt's. It may be easy to add a release rod to your RKR because the RKR already moves toward the changer when you engage it. Or maybe not quite so easy. Let's see what is there now.
Releasing a raise like this to accomplish a lower is common on the Emmons push-pull guitar, but it can also work on an all-pull. I made a little video that shows how it works. The long rod and long spring at the top of the frame keeps the D natural raised up to D# until you push the knee lever to release the pull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tlXL6eYaAQ

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Earnest -- I will get at the photos but not until later today.
Bengt and Earnest .. I am trying and so far not understanding your descriptions. It will take an AHA! moment for what you obviously have well visualized and developed in your heads to become a viable idea in mine. I know myself well and this is familiar territory. I'm working on it.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I'm still trying to figure out how to improve the music with these long throw levers Very Happy

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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

You should be able to apply the same principle to the lower on 7 too, so both pulls move in the same direction. Then you would not need a reversing mechanism on that lever. If you tune the open note on 7 to E but have it pulled up to F# in the neutral position, then released F# > E when engaged along with releasing the D > D# change on 2. This would probably also provide a greater mechanical advantage to shorten the overall throw required for the string 7 change.

One potential issue is your other lower to C# on 2, it would require enough slack in the rod to allow the "release" action from D to D# without interfering, just like on a PP or pull-release guitar

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I'm in the middle of a few days of tracking and just don't feeling like throwing my guitar up on its cradle for a photoshoot so that'll have to wait.
Earnest -- thank you. That last post helped a lot. As have Bengt's and Ian's.
What is becoming clear to me is that I am NOT in heavy tinkering mode.
This new-last-year Williams is not going to see heavy mods....yet.

My call out for ideas here was to see if there were lines of thinking that were new to me and most definitely this one would never have come to me. Cool. I had hoped for something blaringly simple that I was just failing to see. This idea is not that.
I remain open to more thoughts but most certainly there are not going to be a lot of different ways to skin this cat without a total reinvention of the system and that is NOT going to happen.

Thanks again. Your time was definitely not wasted in that I learned from this. It expands my world of imagining.

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