Good-bye "C" pedal.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I have a triple raise/double lower S12U, and pulled the B to C# "C" pedal raise several months ago to accomodate a B6th B to C raise. I also changed my first 3 strings to 1=D#, 2=G#, 3=F#. This put the F# note right next to the 4th string E. The last few weeks I have been training myself to do all the "C" pedal licks from the "AB" position. No problem. They're all still there, just needed to tweak the right hand grips and left hand bar technique a bit.
After last nights gig I feel I have
re-trained myself sufficiently with respect to fluid playability of those licks such that the "C" pedal is no longer needed.
I'm dropping off my axe at Sierra this week to have Tom pull the remaining E to F# changes from the "C" pedal, and move the 5 B6th pedals over to the left one slot, which (IMHO) will increase my general efficiency of motion and overall playability (especially for pedal 8, which was pedal 9).
I've read other posts about folks ditching the E9th "C" pedal (and no doubt some will feel their playing hinges on having it).
In the intrest of sharing ideas, what other clever ways have you thought of to get around
having the standard "C" pedal, on a pedal, and/or why couldn't you live without it on a pedal?

Marty Pollard · Posted 16 Jan 2000 1:20 pm

Now Pete, why'd you have to go and do that? Now that I think about it (after 25 years) it does seem like it could be put to better use. I use the thing, but I could do the same stuff without it. What would be a different (better) change I could put there?

Also (I know this is a diff subject, but I'm curious), doesn't it make more sense to use LKR to lower the Es so that pedal B and LKR make a more natural combination physically?

Moon in Alaska · From: Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.

Pete, I do 90 % of my playing without the C pedal,using the E to F# Knee lever with and without the A and B pedals. I still have my C pedal, as I use it on very fast moves which I can't seem to get with a knee. If I had to give up one, I would, of course, give up the C pedal.
Moon Mullin in Alaska
Carter S-10, OLD fender-400 and Evans amp.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Marty,
I'm mainly a universal guy so that's where my focus is with respect to knee lever placement.
I lower my E's on RKR and use a change lock.
On LKR I have the standard C6th pedal 7 change and it is placed above the standard C6th pedals 5 and 6 (my "home base" for the 6th tuning). I did have a universal that had the E's lowering on LKR (in the standard E9th LKR position), and you would enguage the change lock and flip it up out of the way when playing in the 6th mode. You could play in the 6th mode while holding LKR in, but it interfered with easy access and playability of the 6th pedals (IMHO). My LKR is mainly for B6th playing, so it is closer to RKL than it is LKL. I almost always use the change lock when playing in the 6th mode. Even on songs where I do all the padding in 6th mode and the solo in E9th. The lock can be turned on or off in an instant. I have gone through several versions of my universal copedent trying to maximize the playability of the 6th tuning side as well as the E9th (with respect to Universal). Now (I think) I can do all my E9th stuff out of the AB position, and with the standard C6th pedal 7 on a lever above pedals 5 and 6, I can do alot of B6th stuff there without moving my foot. Pedal 4 is the Boo-whaa with the both C's going to C# (B to C for me, ala B6th). To answer your question, I find it most cofortable to have the E's lowered on RKR whether I'm playing out of the E9th mode or B6th mode. I know that the E's needed to be raised and lowered on LKL and LKR on PP's due to the mechanincs. So I would guess there are alot of folks out there that would feel that LKR would be more comfortable. But try and play the C6th neck/pedals with your left knee enguaging the E9th LKR and you may see the downside of that idea when applied to a Universal. Also, just an idea, if you don't already have it, you could put the Paul Franklin change on pedal C. I should also say that for a while, I was trying to add every change under the sun to my S12U, but over the last year or so I have been minimizing, eliminating, and combining, in an attempt to maximize efficiency of motion and ease of playability. Definatly not for folks that are from a D10 multi pedal/lever background, but something that has brought me alot of brain teaser entertainment value and fun!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 16 January 2000 at 02:40 PM.]

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Hi Pete, I have never seen so many good tuning ideas on one post as you have described today. If I didn't play E6th, but instead played E9/B6, I would do EVERYTHING that you have suggested that you do with your tuning. You have taken the same old dull E9/B6 standard setup and really fine tuned it, as a real musician would.Now you have a Great E9/B6 tuning setup.All the changes that you have made, makes a lot of sense, and looks to be musically correct. And I might add with your placement of the Knee levers and pedals, You are also physically correct. Guys, you better check this out real good and try some of Pete's changes and improvements.It does my heart good to see this kind of stuff going on in this Forum..73's...al

Marty Pollard · Posted 16 Jan 2000 10:22 pm

Al, I find I am suffering from ignorance when I try to contemplate Pete's info. I've never played a C6 or a Uni. In fact it's the most uncomfortable and convoluted process for me to assimilate even the E9 info. I've had just the one guitar for so long. I would love to understand and implement ideas that contribute to the guitars potential.

As to efficiency of motion, LKR to lower the E's in combo with the B pedal to create the dominant 5th is indisputably more efficient (not to mention, intuitive) than using two limbs to accomplish the same result. Actually, my LKL raises the E's so that LKL with A pedal creates the M6, which also seems to me the best way to do this physically. I know that there's the force of habit argument that says if you learn it that way, it's natural for you, but isn't there also a shortest line between two points argument?

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 16 January 2000 at 10:24 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Like Moon, I have been using an E to F# knee lever for a long time. I raise both E's with it. As for the "C" pedal, I can take it or leave it. I only see it as essential if I don't have the knee lever.

With tunable splits, I see that it's possible to get the F lever effect without actually having an F lever. If you raise the E to F# with one lever and lower it to D# with another, you have the F.

Currently I have the E to F# on the left vertical, and E to D# on RKL. I've toyed with the idea of moving the vertical to LKL to see if I can live without the F lever. Has anyone actually tried this? I use the F lever a lot, which is why I'm hesitant to jump in with both feet, er, knees.

------------------
Bobby Lee

www.b0b.com/products
Sierra Session S-12 E9th, Speedy West D-10, Sierra S-8 Lap

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Marty,
I'm just sharing ideas that work for me in hopes of spawning more ideas. Pretty much everything I'm doing is with respect to playing an S12U, and the ideas I have posted regarding LKR are strictly with respect to an S12U configuration. Efficency of motion is in the eye of the beholder with respect to their guitar and setup. I understand your point clearly and fully agree that having the E's lowered on LKR is the best possible spot to have that change... for you and many others I'm sure.
If your following quote is true...

"I've never played a C6 or a Uni."

...then I would respectfully suggest that we get together in St.Louis in the Sierra room and I can show you why I think RKR works best for S12U confugurations.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 17 January 2000 at 05:14 PM.]

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Always wondered what the second neck..
Hi Pete, keep up the thinking out loud...

Marty Pollard · Posted 17 Jan 2000 4:35 pm

Sorry Pete. Do you find it difficult to unlearn the habitual use a particular throw when you change it to a diff location? I think ADDING one would be easier to get used to than CHANGING one. The reason I ask is that you do have me rethinking the C pedal.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Marty,
I edited the last part of my recent post because in hindsight I didn't like the way it sounded.
I must tell you that I was really surprised how fast I got used to having the G# on string 2. That whole idea is for the sake of the 6th tuning though. When I first did it I was jammin' on the 6th tuning thinking "It's so easy now!". Then I went for some E9th licks and it was a train wreck, at first. I must also tell you that I have my steel set up in my living room and in the evenings I watch my dumb sitcoms while practicing right hand grips over and over and over and over, quite literally maybe a few hundred times or more. I change stuff quite a bit and I still have weekly gigs so I need to have it engrained by friday night. One of my biggest "OOPSies" is forgetting to take off the change lock before kicking off an E9th intro (uh, I guess that would be one of the downsides). I thought I would only do that once (OOoowwww) but, well, I'll have to plead the 5th

. Also, when I switched my string setup I had a muscle memory desire to pluck the 1st string which is now a D# and, well... that turned a few heads. I think for the most part the C pedal licks can be done other ways. I needed room for other ideas and it was the most logical change to loose.
If I were a D12 player I would probably keep it (and hire a roadie

). Do you play an S10? Because then I could suggest you rip off the 9th string, move the B to string 9 and get a lever to bring it up to D! Put another G# on 10, switch string 1-3 around, and then you'd be all set! Oh yeah, we'll get ya all fixed up!!!

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Pete:
Take that lock of and hold it in you'll find that you can play in and out of both tunning much easer.You'll find out that there is a whole new world waiting for you when you learn to just look at it as one tunning !!!!

[This message was edited by David Wright on 17 January 2000 at 08:21 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Aww man!
But I like the lock!
But I also really like the way you get around on your Universal!
Lock advice duly noted!
The lock makes some of my ever changing copedent ideas work better with respect to research and developement(in the loosest sence of the term). I feel that I don't rely on it, rather use it as a convenient tool(which sometimes gets me in trouble).
Thanks David!

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Grasshoper:
Take the lock off and come to the light, Once at the light, you can't get in trouble anymore.Trust me I shave my head !!!!!!!

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

I believe David is Wright!

Joe Alterio · From: Irvington, Indiana

4 years and 7 months between David and Jerry's posts.....

I believe we have a NEW RECORD!!!

Joe

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

On my previous steel I had a vertical knee lever raising the 4th string to F#, which worked very well for quick moves. It was much easier to just kick up your knee while depressing the A and B pedals, compared to moving your left foot. Also, I think this move is much quicker than using a sideways knee lever. As soon as I get a vertical lever installed on my new steel, I will find another use for my C pedal. Perhaps I'll try replacing it with the "Franklin pedal" changes.

Per Berner

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

Oops! Didn't notice the date. Thought it was a current post.

Never mind.

Alan Pagliere · From: Ann Arbor, MI, USA

With my Universal here, 8 and 5, I hereby give advice and seek advice:
Lose the lock.

Background on my request for advice, here's my lever setup.
RKR lowers Es (and lowers D# to C# so that while in B6 mode, I get the second, equivalent of D on the C6th tuning).
RKL Es to F.
LKR B to Bb (equivalent of the C to B on C6th).
LKV raises the middle G# to A, giving me a 7th in 6th mode and of course m7 with pedal 6, etc., etc.).
LKL lowers D# to C# in E9th mode, and, not as importantly for me, raises the lower B to D to get that typical E9th tuning D).

Here's my question though, for Pete the Puzzler and David the Wright. Where should I put the B to C change (equivalent of the C6th's C to C#)? I think I would love to have that change.
I have only those 5 levers. I do have a 4th pedal I essentially don't use but that change seems much better on a knee than on a pedal.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I didn't realize until it was pointed out how many years this thread has spanned. Wow!

I would like to comment on one of the comments about the universal being a wierdo or words to that affect

I understand why this is. More and more we have players who began on E9th who either have Single neck PSG's; or D-10's where the bottom neck is used for an elbow rest.

I believe the reason for this is, that many did not have the advantage of coming up thru the lap steel era using the C6 tuning as one of our stock tunings. And in some cases the major lap tuning. Speaking of C6 being the major tuning, it would not surprise me to learn this was true in the case of Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day, (others of course).

If you had played C6 on lap for years, then suddenly found yourself playing a D-10 with the standard setup, it would feel right at home. And while you might not like the universal, it would be far from a mystery when you sat down to it.

And for some players it would be a step forward. When I first sat down to mine, it was indeed strange and I did hit some wrong bottom and top strings, E9th and C6th respectively. But in less than a week, I was sailing smoothly without a breeze. (Did I just coin a phrase?

)

The reason is, when you lower the E's to Eb on even the standard E9th setup, you are IN the C6 mode. True that dang ninth string D will kick and ole C6'r in the teeth, but much of C6 can be played on the upper strings.

Remember, prior to pedals, most steels were 6 to 8 stringers. While there were 10 stringers all the way back to Rickenbacher, they were quite rare. So we did not have the luxury of those big ole bottom boomers.

If I ever took on students again, the last thing I would do is to start them on a pedal steel guitar. I would start them on a single neck lap steel. And concentrate on pick and bar control. Then I would demand that they play the same song on more than one tuning. Preferably at least 3 tunings.

ONLY when they became proficient in feeling comfortable playing a given tune in one tuning; then reaching down quickly changing the tuning and playing the same tuning in another tuning; etc, would I introduce them to pedals.

I believe with all my heart that if this was standard practice amongst teachers the end results would be awesome. Course a likely response would be "yea and you would lose that student in the first few weeks

Maybe so. Not so sure. But anyway....

That is my take on it.

The Right Way

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 12 August 2004 at 07:34 AM.]

Robert Thomas · From: Mehama, Oregon, USA

Carl, I like your suggestion on teaching steel guitar. That is how I learned, on an open hole Hawaiian Guitar. I was taught to play in E, A, and C 6th. During playing for 25 years I went from 6 string single, to an 8 string Dble Neck, then a 8 string 3 Neck. From there I went to a D-10, 8+4. I had no problem with the tunings, but did have to master the Pedals, which came surprisingly fast, so I didn't give up.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hey! Great Thread!
One thing I'd point out is...
Brother David plays a "6th" based tuning (Bb6th), so the whole B6th lock thing is moot. To play straight E9th he often has to hold the Eb>E lever in.
He doesn't have an E>F lever (Pedal Steel is great that way!... Everyone can do their own thang!)
But FWIW, I read posts every week on this Forum from guys who've played E9th for a while, and are moving to S12U.
If you are planning on spending countless hours learning the 6th pedals/levers (and I know you didn't by an S12U to never venture past the C pedal), I'm here to tell ya, either get a bungee cord, or buy a steel with a change lock, cuz your leg is sure gonna get tired of holding that lever over.
I'll say it again, If you have a B6th lever lock, you can either use it, or not use it.
If you don't have the lock, you can only not use it.
Playing S12U as "One Big Tuning" is great!... but untill someone comes out with a S12U-One Big Tuning Course, it's more of an advanced players thing, and a few come to mind including Larry Bell and Joe Wright.

Oh yeah... this thread was about the C lever.
I'm up to 4 pedal steels (all single necks) and down to zero C pedals!

Alan, I'm not sure if you have a C pedal or not.
I like that B>C raise next to the B pedal. (strings 5, 9 [and maybe 12]).
You can use it instead of half pedaling the the A pedal (you can still half pedal if you prefer).
With the B pedal it gives you the minor of the A+B chord.
In B6th mode, it gives you a cool Diminished when used with the B pedal.
Plus all it's normal 6th uses.

Fun Stuff!
~pb

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 12 August 2004 at 02:28 PM.]

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

There's something here for everybody: as an E9 player, I seem to use the C pedal most often in combination with A and B, or B, and I often use my right foot for it. I think having it on LKV as Per did is a much more "ergonomic" place for that change, especially for a fast poke with A and B, and I am going to try it there.

George Macdonald · From: Vancouver Island BC Canada

Hi Pete, From 1974 until acouple of years ago I played my "universal" 12 MSA without a C pedal. Back in 74 there was only double raise and lower so Maurice Anderson set mine up in B6th with my first 4 strings Eb, G#, F#, Eb. As you pointed out, having the F# right above the 4th string made it possible to do much of the "C" pedal work, but without the pedal pushing effect. My RR knee lever raises my Eb to E and my RL knee lowers strings 4 and 8 to D as well as raising my first string Eb to E. So my LL knee doubles as Pedal 6 on a double neck. I now have a Carter S12 with 8 and 6 and I believe all the changes normaly found on most D10s. I really enjoy finaly having a "C" pedal, and, by the way, a lock wouldn't appeal to me at all. It really is just one big tuning. George

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

Since there is some interest in the old thread, I'd like to add that there is some advantage to not using the lock. That is, if the guitar is tuned for the high E to change back to E from an Eb locked position and the middle E to change to D from same. In this case, if the lock is not in use, both the knee lever and the foot pedal must be engaged to get the change correctly. When adjusted for just the middle E to lower to D with the one pedal, only the one pedal is necessary for this E position from either tuning base. Without the lock, the middle E can also be used as an E while in B-base. But, both ways can be accomplished by having an extra lever to capture the D from the E-base. The E foot pedal for the locked B-base can be eliminated completely with the use of this knee lever and no lock. The same lever can be used to recapture the D for the E-9.

Also, the C pedal can be used in conjuction with the G#s -> A#s pedal on the universal type tuning to allow for a 2 Major position with the C pedal and the first pedal on the B6 and the 2 minor position with B and C pedals. Minor with B and C, Major with C and P1 on B6. For another scenario, the E9 licks using the 2 minor position from E-base and 2# minor and 3 minor positions one and two frets up, respectively, only require B and C pedals instead of A + B + E->F# lever. So, to me, the E->F# lever is a good pull, but it is not all inclusive of the good licks with the BC pedal combination.

Just a few thoughts

[This message was edited by Jerry Clardy on 15 August 2004 at 02:44 AM.]

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