Fender 400 vs Modern Pedal Steels

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Jim Sliff points to Sneaky Pete and Ed Bierly as examples of the versatility of the Fender 400. I maintain that Pete's instrument has been modified so much that it is, in essence, a modern steel anyway. It's exempt from the discussion, in my mind, because it isn't anything like the Fenders that are on the market.

I didn't know that Ed has been playing a 400 recently; my 11-year-old publication of his S-12 Whitney copedent certainly shows that he has a master's understanding of the steel guitar.

Jim didn't mention Ralph Mooney, Jimmy Day or Curly Chalker. These three SGHOF members made memorable historic recordings on Fender guitars. I think it's worth noting that all 3 of them moved on to modern instruments with knee levers when they became available.

I think that Jim is misleading people when he recommends the Fender 400 to beginners. He seems to think it's a fine instrument to start on. I disagree. I think that people who start out playing pedal steel with less than what the standard E9th provides are likely to develop "ruts" in their playing that will inhibit their progress later on.

I think that the Fender 400 is a fine instrument, and it's useful when you want that specific sound for a certain band or for a certain recording. But it is virtually impossible to develop a complete musical vocabulary within the confines of 8 strings, 4 pedals and no knee levers.

We have 10 strings for a reason - 8 wasn't enough to complete the musical system. We have knee levers for a reason - it wasn't possible to get the combination of pulls necessary for a complete musical system using just one foot.

If you learn without knee levers, or without enough strings, you always fall back into those comfortable ruts in your playing, even after you've "graduated" to to a 10 string with 3+4.

From the other side of the coin: if you learn on a 10 string with 3+4, and then want to play a Fender 400, you know what's missing. You find slants and alternate positions to get those notes, or remove harmonies from parts when necessary. These things are not at all obvious unless you have experience with the complete musical system.

I challenge anyone to come up with an 8 string, 4 pedal copedent that can do half of what a Carter Starter can do. Count the full chords available. Count the common inversions and transitions. It just doesn't make sense to box yourself into a subset of music from the get-go. Would you buy a piano that didn't include the black keys?

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

David Doggett · Posted 27 Oct 2006 11:06 am

I agree with everything b0b says except the 8 string part. The older players who learned on 8 string pedal steel can play the moving harmony and heart-thrilling sliding transitions like no one else (I think of Jimmy Day, Buddy Emmons and John Hughey, among many others). I believe learning with the "crutch" of the extra strings has stunted my ability to play in that old original pedal steel style. In terms of the instruments available, it's impractical; but if I were starting a student on pedal steel, I would tell them to stay with 8 strings for at least a couple of years before starting to use the more modern 10-string approach.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

A 400 will work fine for basic E9 but why have someone start out on one and force them to retrain their muscle memory when they eventually move to a modern guitar? Or why go through the hassle of adding a double raise to the top E and/or adding knee levers for a beginner? Why start someone at an inherent disadvantage and possibly frustrate them early, causing them to give up?

I can maybe understand starting out someone on a 400 with E9 if they can borrow one or get one cheap, but realize that they should move to something with a 3x2 setup at the minimum as soon as possible.

C6, on the other hand, is a different story.

Pat Irvin · From: Kansas City, Missouri, USA

I believe both sides have valid points. I personally did start with a Carter Starter and for me it was a mistake. Not because it did or didn't have all the neccesary strings or changes. It just wasn't sturdy enough for me to play. I'm a big guy and it just moved around to much and I felt like I was going to break it. I would have been much better off my first 6 or 8 months with the Fender I now have. Just for the simple fact I can actually play it without feeling like I'm gonna snap a pedal/knee lever off.

Also most people starting out are on a budget. I believe if you start with a 400 (which can be had for less money than a starter quite often), learn the AB and C pedals of it(pun intended). Maybe spend a little money, if you want, and add some knees to it when you are ready(which is pretty inexpensive and can be done fairly easy). Now you have a pretty cool retro steel that would be easy to sell(and probably not lose money on) once you felt the need to move on to a Professional Model.

When I got my first Zum I loaned my carter starter out to a few people and none of them liked playing it for the same reason I didn't. I'm not running the Carter down, I'm just saying to "some" of us it can detramental to learning. Now one of those folks test drove another steel that wasn't a Carter Starter and now is hooked on steel and has since purchased a Professional Steel. I'm positive that if I would have had a Fender to loan him instead of the Carter Starter, he would have jumped on the Steel Guitar Bandwagon a long time ago and would not have had the "bad taste in his mouth" from giving up because of the Starter.

I sure wish I could play my 20 strings, 8 pedals and 5 knees a 1/3rd as good on as Mooney, Day, and Chalker did on those old 8 string fenders.

my 2 cents

[This message was edited by Pat Irvin on 27 October 2006 at 01:30 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

It seems so many of us are hung-up on the equipment...

If only I had more strings
If only I had better strings
If only I had more pedals
If only I had more knee levers
If only I had a better amp
If only I had a better guitar
If only I had more necks
If only I had a better pickup
If only I had more pickups
If only I had a better volume pedal
If only I had a better speaker
If only I had a better bar
If only I had better picks
If only I had a better reverb

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah...

IF ONLY!

(If only any of the above would make you a better musician.)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

If only I could slide between all of the inversions of the major and minor chords.

Personally, I don't think it's too much to ask.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Some of the best steel music was done on 7 strings and no pedals.

But if you're going for a modern contemporary sound, get 10 strings, 3 x 4.

DZ

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 27 October 2006 at 02:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 27 October 2006 at 02:04 PM.]

Jerry Malvern · From: Menifee, California, USA

I agree what Bob says. The first pedal steel I bought was an eight string, 4 pedal Fender.(that was 1982, long before this fabulous forum) Then I bought Winnie's book, in which he states, " Dont buy an eight string ". It was hard to get the right sounds, I got frustrated and in the case and in the closet it went. Sold it to the same fellow I bought it from and bought a Sho Bud LDG 3 and 4. I learned how to play on that guitar. Hopefully, all the newbee's take the time to understand the difference between opinion and consensous.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

if only i could run into b0b somewhere, he'd realize i just like to pick and don't really know much else!!

ebb · From: nj

i recently sent jim sliff a 10 string 3+4 version of sneaky's 8 pedal, 2 knee copedant to put on his gfi. ive come to realize that the "chromatics" are not really neccesary and are the source of alot of cliche licks i hear. my 2 favorite players mooney+sneaky did not have the 2 top strings on the e9 and i like the sound of having to get the 9th with a pedal. for this reason i dont think 8 strings are too few. ive also come to believe that the less strings the better the pickup sounds but i admit i like the low impedance scatter wound sound more akin to a guitar than a steel. also 8 strings make you move around more on the neck, to get lines, which i percieve to be more aurally exciting than running up vertically on fewer frets. i agree that taking this route requires you to figure out more for yourself but i also think that this is a good thing for the properly motivated. 8 strings didnt stop mooney, sneaky, chalker, day etc. in fact alot of us cant play what jerry douglas plays on 6 strings

[This message was edited by ebb on 27 October 2006 at 04:11 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"I think that Jim is misleading people when he recommends the Fender 400 to beginners."

This would be a valid point - except that's complete BS.

I do not recommend beginners grab a 400 to start on *unless* they plan on playing completely outside the "norm" and don't mind blazing their own trail. I have normally recommended a 10 string, E9 3+4 as the minimum for a country beginner.

So lets get the facts straight before you start a thread slamming me for something I didn't say...at least without qualifying the statements.

OTOH, you're WAY off base on Sneaky's guitar as well. Name the modifications, b0b. Oh - knee levers? What else? When did you last play a guitar set up that way? Never? Oh.....

The two knee levers are irrelevant - he didn't add those until the 70's - the early Burritos and a lot of his studio work was done without them.

The 9th pedal was never used, period.

The ONLY mods that would be significant are the addition of two barrel tuners and associated brackets to allow double raises on two strings.

The electronics (pickups, knobs, tone devices, etc.) have nothing to do with playability/mechanics.

So the "heavily modified guitar" you keep harping on has the same parts (a whole 2 of them!) many modern steels use, which are readily available and take approximately 20 minutes to install.

Ed's 400 knowledge, and his experience with B6, has taught many of us just WHAT it is - a superb Universal tuning. Compact, linear and easy to follow, with a wide sonic range. And Sneaky's 1 & 2 pedals are essentially your A&B pedals - the building block for 90% of what's played on E9 pedal steel. But want to go "C6"? Switch to pedals 5 & 6.

Honestly, if you haven't played it the light really doesn't go "on". That's been the experience of several people, who simply assume any 8-string tuning on an old guitar is limited and unplayable. Until they spend some time with it and find the nuances and the breadth of it.

The 4-pedal models are obviously limited...but we could take one, tune it to B6 and use the 1, 2, 4 and 7 pedals of Sneaky's copedent and play it all day long. Majors, minors, "pedal mashing". "Mooney" pedal, Clarence White tricks...I'd like to find one just to do the minimalist approach at times.

But I want to get this straight once and for all - I do not and did not recommend it for beginners without very specific qualifications. For 90% of them it's the wrong choice. But for those taking a different path, it's a great tool.

Mechanically there are also all kinds of misconceptions - "they play stiff"; there's no sustain; they sound tinny. If a 400/1000/8000/2000 has those problems it's simply not set up right. The sound is inherently fat like a Strat on the middle pickup and the tone control rolled off a bit - if it's thin, adjust the pickup height and listen to find the "sweet spot". Sustain is also affected by pickup height, string attachment, bridge adjustment and several other factors; but while they certainly don't sustain like some modern steels, they will get darned close when set up right. And they can very simply be "unstiffened" by using different springs on the changer, a simple job. You can have a 400 play as quick and smooth as everything else if you adjust and lube it correctly. It's not rocket science.

Two great *advantages* - 1) they have NO cabinet drop. None. 2) You can change copedents in minutes. One of the easiest things to do in the steel world. It's harder to *tune* most steels than change a 400 copedent.

The main point is, the 400 is a perfectly valid, usable and complete musical tool. It's not very suitable for "modern country music", but what some people just don't get is that most 400 players don't listen to, play or give a hoot about modern country music.

There ARE other paths to take, and they are not wrong...just different. Live with it.

We have a great group of cable-heads on this forum. We talk ona and off line; trade parts, trade stories, fix each other's guitars; and every one of us gets a laugh (and used to feel insulted - now we pity the poor guy who doesn't *get* it) when we are told we are playing inferior tools and we just don't measure up.

I'm setting up my GFI Ultra 3+4 in B6 with the same changes and then some.

I assume that validates me? Or am I using the wrong tuning to be a club member? Drat, I guess I'll just never get it right.

;-)

I don't know why you felt compelled to start this thread b0b - we're well aware of your dislike for these guitars. So I thank you for opening the discussion, since it allowed us the opportunity to explain how wrong the misconceptions are - and also for me to ask you not to put words in mouth and try to get forum members to believe I would intentionally steer players the wrong way. On that entire point you are simply flat wrong.

"But it is virtually impossible to develop a complete musical vocabulary within the confines of 8 strings, 4 pedals"

I'll add - on this point you are correct. And I've never said otherwise. Your whole post is misleading and offensive.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 27 October 2006 at 04:14 PM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

You get what you pay for. A Fender 400 is a Fender 400. If that's what a player wants and likes, then go for it. It won't compare to the newer models. I believe to find the ultimate guitar to cover everything, it's probably going to be a U-12. Everything from lap steel to D-10 steel and anything in between is on a 12-string universal. It's all about personal choice. I prefer the D-10's because a lot of them seem to have better sustain to me but then again, everybody hears things in there own way. So, there it is again, personal choices.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Actually, Jim, I like the Fender 400. I sort of wish I had one.

The problem arises when beginners email me asking if they should buy one. They should not, IMHO. Almost all of the 400s on the market have 4 pedals and no knee levers. The musical systems that are possible with 4 pedals and no knee levers have severe limitations.

Ed likes the challenge of more bar movement, of figuring out how to do more with less. I do too, and I think that's exactly the approach that an 8 string player needs to have. But Ed knows a lot about steel guitar. New players do not.

I started this topic because I routinely get emails from people who want to take up pedal steel. They don't know whether to start with an 8 string Fender 400 or a modern S-10 guitar. I don't believe that there's any good reason for any new player to start on an 8 string.

There are still a lot of these guitars on the market. They get sold and resold in the beginners market, over and over, because people can't learn on them. I won't be happy until every one of them is in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Don Barnhardt · From: North Carolina, USA

Bob and Jim make some interesting points. I got a 400 on a trade about 30 years ago. I got one of Winnie Winston's books and tried to learn how to play it. The first problem I ran into was breaking strings. I finally solved that problem by tuning down to D9 but then I started breaking cables. Itried contacting Fender to no avail no parts or technical support from them. Finally in frustration I gutted it and threw away the frame and tried to use it as a lap steel but it sounded like crap and I put it away for a long time. I recently re-did it and it's a sweet lap steel now nice tone and sustain that wont stop. If I ever get the opportunity and the cash at the same time I want another one. One big advantage of the 400 is the ease of changing set up. I would like to experiment with other musical styles besides country and I think it would be ideal.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The steel started out to be just a 6-string straight guitar, played with a bar (and an open-chord tuning). Jay came along around '35 or '36 and added 4 pedals. Somebody else (Alvino?) added a string or two, and by 1939 we had a double-neck, 8-string, 8-pedal guitar. The pedals and tunings were becoming refined, but by the late '50s, we added another string or two, and by the early '60s, a couple knee levers - a D10 with 8+2 was the new "standard". As usual, "more" wasn't enough. Another decade saw 12, and then 14, string guitars, with as many as 20 pedals, but for awhile, 5 or 6 levers (and 9 floor pedals) on a D10 seemed enough. Fast forward to the '80s, though, and things get still more complex. We got accustomed to seeing "clusters" (often with 9 or 10 levers), forward levers, and even wrist-levers coming into the picture. And, oh yeah, even 14-string devotees! Every time someone comes close to getting really good at the instrument, we (I? They?) add a little more, make changes, and proclaim it's now "better".

Why didn't that happen with the violin?

I listen, at steel shows, and to all kinds of recordings that use pedal steel.

What glares most (to me, anyway) both in my own playing, and that of most others, is not an equipment shortcoming, but more often...a poor technique, a tuning problem, an intonation problem while playing, a lack of imagination, bad timing, poor bar control, improper volume pedal technique, wrong chords, choppy lines, irregular dynamics, lack of variety, little sense of style, and so many other things that just deter from the "musicality" (for lack of a better term) of what we're doing.

Yeah, we've got a gazillion more chords and voicings, far better (more complex and reliable) steels and amps, and (presumably) a lot more players and steels than we've ever had!

So then (rhetorically, if you wish), why have we (collectively) as steelers made so few inroads? Why are we not accepted any better (by other musicians and the public) than we were 40 years ago? Are we making vastly better music now than we did in the '60s?

By all accounts, we certainly should be.

Oh well, something to think about, anyway.

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

My fender 400 has 8 pedals. I had it in the sneaky pete setup for a while, but it wasn't natural for me. I usually play a uni-12 and I wanted the same E9 knee lever changes so here is what i did.

pedal 1 raises E's to F(F knee lever)
pedal 2 raises B's to C#(A pedal)
pedal 3 raises G#'s to A(B pedal)
pedal 4 lowers E's to Eb(D knee lever=B6)
pedal 5 lowers D# to D(dominat 7th)
pedal 6 lowers G#'s to G(Tonic Minor chords)
pedal 7 lowers B's to Bb(b5 chords)
pedal 8 raises F# to G#

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E

i really like it cause i can get my AF and BD
combos like i do with my modern knees. No C pedal but there is a world of combos that work great for me.

also notice how pedal combo 5,6,7 gives me the elusive m7b5 chord

ebb · From: nj

i think donny is exactly right. i have made this journey myself. i think too many choices inhibit creativity. i know for instance that i can get the same chord with the same voicing on my anapeg in up to 40 different configurations where as on my fender they are in the single digits. i have also experienced the audience repsponding to the sound of my fender in a much more viceral way than to my anapeg. now that could be that i am much more comfortable and confident with the fender for the kinds of music that is easily communicated to them. at the same time i need my anapeg to play bill evans where i will probably need another 10 years to exude the same confidence and command. i need to stress that is always about the music. i am not a fan of listing equipment owned in a signature as i believe it distracts from this point

[This message was edited by ebb on 27 October 2006 at 06:35 PM.]

ebb · From: nj

i like it rand. solid thinking

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

Modern enuff for me.

I can just use 1st 4 pedals for pretty much any gig.

But tonite i'm taking my push-pull uni12.

funny thing is.......my 400 and this uni12 are probably 10 years or less apart....and neither is modern.......i have those kind too, but they are too easy to play and never break......speaking of antiquated.........my rick B6 plus a tubescreamer and a blackface reverb will tear your head clean off........but they probably weren't thinking that in 1937.

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 27 October 2006 at 06:58 PM.]

Russ Tkac · Posted 27 Oct 2006 6:16 pm

I started pedal steel in the mid 70s and in about 5 years of active playing got a little bit above below average. Since revisiting steel this past year and a half I've found what I was looking for in the Fender 400 but mine has 9 pedals.

I grew up wanting to try Sneaky's B6 but I was a guitar player and didn't want to relearn all what I could already play on my E9. The B6 is so much easier for me to understand and the "corn pedals" on the 6th tuning as Ed calls them makes more sense.

I love listening to the great E9 and C6 players. I'll never be one. This works for me. If you're a beginner get a good 10 string steel with 3 and 4 and some good instruction. If you like thinking outside of the box ... Leo did it right!

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"I started this topic because I routinely get emails from people who want to take up pedal steel. They don't know whether to start with an 8 string Fender 400 or a modern S-10 guitar."

You actually started off this thread accusing me of making recommendations I've never madem - IMO you have some wild-haired idea that I'm shoving a 400 up everyone's behind, saying "play it or else".

I haven't noticed that being corrected yet, sir. Fix it.

Jim

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

Some people do not know a good thing until they loose their forum membership.....

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I LOVE the sound of a Fender 400.. so much so that I bought one...I was hopelessly LOST without the 1 and 2 strings, and was unable to play without levers... I sold it, and can get pretty close to the same sound using modern steels with 8 K pickups and Fender tube amps... Fender cable jobs are VERY cool old steels and are not limited in the right hands... I guess mine are just NOT the right hands...

Personally, I have to think it WOULD make a good beginner steel as it would force you to play the guitar more with the bar and strings and LESS with pedals and knees... IMHO that is the correct way to play steel... I am disgusted at my lack of string and bar knowledge... I have used lots of pedals.knees, chromatic strings as a crutch for 30 years,,, I think it might take longer to be a good steel player starting on a Fender, but I would imagine you could wind up a better player.... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 28 October 2006 at 07:23 AM.]

Neil Harms · From: Ionia, Missouri, USA

Interesting topic. I started on a Maverick with 3 and 1 and couldn't make heads or tales of it at the time. Had Mr. Winston's fine book at that time too. Sold it very frustrated. Picked up a Fender 400 with 6 pedals and with a little free advice from Don Curtis (thanks Don!) I was able to start playing almost immediately. As a guitar player trying to make the transition to pedals, the simple E9 setup I had made perfect sense and allowed me to play. Since I've never been one with the patience to try to learn everyone else's licks note for note, it forced me to think musically instead. What sounds "good" in this song was the focus rather than what matches the record. Never heard a complaint from anyone either in my band or in the crowd and in fact I've never had as many people since then comment on how great my steel sound is. Once I decided I was ready to expand to something "better" to see what the fuss was about, I picked up a Sierra 12-String Extended E9 with 5 and 4. I learned a ton on this guitar and with I had it back. Another case of too much too soon. I sold it and bought my current LDG 3x4. I'll probably never get everything there is to know out of it. Guess what I'm looking for now? Another Fender. Seems like there's something magic about them but this time I want a double neck. I love the way a second neck makes you "re-program" your brain and avoid the ruts that all of fall into from time to time regardless of the number of strings/necks/effect pedals etc., etc.

So what's my opinion on the "what to start with" question? I'd probably point someone towards a standard 3x4 if they were a hard-core country junkie. If not, I'd tell them to get whatever speaks to them.

Hopefully my brother Aaron (curently playing my old Fender with his own E9 setup) will weigh in on this.

Folks, enjoy those steels. They're still cheaper than therapy! N.

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76 Sho-Bud LDG, 52 Fender Custom Triple, Fender Vibrasonic "Custom", (plus all that other stuff....)

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