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Topic: Pedal Steel Without Pedals (or Steel) |
Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 1:54 pm |
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Here is some raw footage from an app screen recording of me playing my ($200) Casio keyboard hooked up to an iPad running a beta version of my FREE app, so as to function as a Pedal Steel Keytar (i.e., a keyboard that emulates a pedal steel guitar), something that has NEVER before been done !!
http://PedalSteelKeytar.com (this link takes you directly to the video)
Feedback welcome.
GARY |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 2:11 pm
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| This should be fun. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 2:55 pm
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Good point, Ian and Dave. I will have to refine my claim.
This has NEVER before been done on a ‘standard MIDI’ keyboard !!
The keyboard on the video probably cost upwards of $5000. It is polyphonic, making it easy to change the pitch of some notes independently of others.
For example, in my third verse, I slide from F major to A minor. This transition, which shifts the pitch of the F and C notes 4 semitones, and the A note 3 semitones, is not possible on a standard MIDI keyboard, which has only a single pitch source, necessitating that any slide affect all notes equally. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 3:03 pm
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If one has a really good knowledge of how to play the pedal-steelguitar and also some keyboard/piano knowledge then one could definitly lay down some convincing careful selection of backup steelguitar parts that could fool some. But there is a bunch of steelguitar bends and slides that would not sound convincing unless one spent many hours editing vs 20 secs of proper steelguitar playing.
Drum-machines doesnt replace a proper drummer either  and this one wont replace the pedal-steel guitarist.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 8:54 pm
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No argument from me B. This Pedal Steel Keytar will never replace a pedal steel guitarist. The reason I have posted on this forum is to get feedback as to what this invention does well, and what is does not do so well.
You alluded to the fact that there may be some bends and slides that this keytar could not pull off convincingly. If you can describe one, or point to one, I would like to take a shot at it.
GARY |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 11:09 pm
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First thing that come to mind are some long sustaining 6th interval slides where the interval changes in both directions(bar-slanting) while sliding that would be tricky to get the correct timing/vibrato and intervals (including any slightly overshooting slides and back) correctly. Yes it can be programmed(tiiime consuming) in midi mono mode, but it is way faster to execute that particular part in 5 seconds on a pedal-steel. Ive heard convincing steel-guitar, acoustic guitar (strumming patterns and double-stop bends) and harmonica done many years ago with keyboard and midi-mono mode programming/editing. Many hours went into making it sound convincing and they definitly knew how the guitar was played, so it didnt sound like someone playing piano with a guitar sound. This Pedal Steel Keytar however seems to make some of those pedal-steel parts a little more accessible in a live setting.
B.Erlandsen |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 6:27 am
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Very interesting, B. From my research, I was under the impression that bar slants were a ‘lap’ steel thing, so I did not give it much thought. However, while researching the topic a bit further, I saw a post from Larry Bell (whose website I had visited frequently during the development of my app), where he says that he still uses bar slants for effect. So that is good enough for me. 
I am pretty sure that my app can handle ‘long-sustaining 6th interval slides where the interval changes in both directions’. First I have to figure out what that means, and then practice it a bit before recording, so I will have to get back to you.
But I assure you, B. It will be obvious from the recording that I am doing it LIVE.
GARY |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 8:37 am
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| Sounds like a theremin. The chordal stuff sounds like a herd of theremins. Have you posted the demo on a theremin users forum? I appreciate your creativity and drive, and making an app that is more accessible to users of less expensive keyboards is admirable. That’s my passive/aggressive take on it. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 10:30 am
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Funny you should mention that about the theremin, Fred. That is exactly what Jonathan Gregg said (the ‘Howcast’ pedal steel video guy, though he never said anything about a ‘herd’ of theremins ).
I hope you will keep more to the passive side until I have had a chance to address this issue. I think it has a lot to do with the reverb on the GM1 sound patch I am using, which I can easily remove, but then everyone that uses the app will have to do the same thing to get the same sound, which is not a big deal if it markedly improves the sound.
GARY |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 12:40 pm
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This pedal-steel part would be a serious challenge to do on keyboard and not an easy task on the pedal-steel either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBrKUyuxldo
I am not gonna try duplicate that part on either, Im just enjoying and getting inspired by how Paul Franklin navigates those harmonies
B.Erlandsen |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 1:46 pm
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B, it seems like his bar slants are holding the notes out of tune for a looooong time. Is that the way slants are supposed work?
BTW, I know I could never emulate that, so I am not even going to try.
GARY |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 2:33 pm
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 Sounds just like a pedal steel!
PS. I know you didn't say that, so don't take offense. It's a very interesting concept - modeling pedal action and right hand movements in software. You're wise not to try. Personally, I don't think it can be done... yet! 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 5:23 pm
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No offense taken. You have put together a great website, with a great bunch of people. Very happy to be part of it. Thank you, b0b.
My goal is produce an instrument that sounds ‘realistically’ like a pedal steel guitar using any off-the-shelf keyboard. The biggest obstacle to that, so far, has been me. My rendition of Amazing Grace is nothing like a pedal steel player would play it ... but I’ll get there.
GARY |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 9:54 pm
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Good news, Fred. I think I eliminated that theremin sound.
http://PedalSteelKeytar.com
All I had to do was lighten up a bit on my hitting the vibrato trigger key (red-highlighted in the video). I was pressing it too hard, which gave the vibrato too much depth, like sliding the tone bar back and forth several inches.
If you ever want to make your guitar sound like a theremin, now you know how.
Thank you, Fred. You were a big help.
GARY
P.S. In case the new video has not yet propagated to your server, make sure the title says, ‘Amazing Grace DEMO.’ If not, check back again in an hour or so. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 Aug 2019 3:47 am Friendly but onstructive criticism
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| The polytonal note changes are smooth, but some chords in the song are just...wrong. I don't know if that's because you don't know the right chords, or because the chord choices you've made are easier to do. At any rate, I think it detracts from the presentation, and the example you're trying to illustrate. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 31 Aug 2019 4:12 am Okay, but pedal steel, NOT!
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Okay, but pedal steel, NOT!
The one that Ian linked to was far closer.
This is only similar in the moving notes. The tone is so far off it would fool no one.
Better to just call it what it is, a Keytar.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 31 Aug 2019 4:17 am
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| Gary Pogoda wrote: |
My goal is produce an instrument that sounds ‘realistically’ like a pedal steel guitar using any off-the-shelf keyboard. The biggest obstacle to that, so far, has been me. My rendition of Amazing Grace is nothing like a pedal steel player would play it ... but I’ll get there.
GARY |
Your best bet is to just cut up the piano and use the wood, 3 pedals and whatever else and try to build a pedal steel! You'll be playing a PSG a whole lot faster that way.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 31 Aug 2019 4:38 am
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Donny, you are absolutely correct. I am an inventor, not a musician, and I am not trying to fool anyone into thinking otherwise. The purpose of my video was to get feedback on the mechanics of my emulation, which it already has done.
Once I get the mechanics of the emulation to where I am happy with them, I guarantee you that I will post a video that properly plays a song. At that time, I will also post a complimentary link to my app for members of this forum, in case anyone wants to take a stab at it for themselves.
Until then, please bear with me.
Andy, you may be right. I hope to prove otherwise, but if not, I will keep your suggestion in mind.
GARY |
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Joe Krumel
From:
Hermitage, Tn.
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Posted 31 Aug 2019 7:24 am
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| "Herd of Theremins"......perfect description...I can't stop laughing. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 31 Aug 2019 8:43 am
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Joe, I’ll admit. It had a similar effect on me.
GARY |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 7 Sep 2019 6:23 am
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The feedback I received on Amazing Grace (my first attempt at a song) was invaluable. Thank you.
Here is my second song, SLEEPWALK.
http://pedalsteelkeytar.com
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GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 16 Sep 2019 4:40 am
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I have created five different instrument sounds for the Pedal Steel Keytar:
1. Electric
2. Acoustic
3. Vibes
4. Doos
5. EP
If you are a pedal steel player, check out:
Sleepwalk - Pedal Steel Keytar (Electric)
If you might also be interested in an acoustic sounding pedal steel, check out:
Sleepwalk - Pedal Steel Keytar (Acoustic)
http://pedalsteelkeytar.com
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 17 Feb 2020 10:24 am
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As a result of my collaborating with two prominent pedal steel players, here is my latest revision:
https://youtu.be/BB_-2KvaGLY
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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