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Topic: Will anyone notice? |
Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Feb 2020 7:58 am |
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Will anyone (other than steel players) notice if I only keep playing Jeff Newman's phrases or licks from his instructional "A & B pedals" course FOREVER from now on?
Seriously, I'm having so much fun playing his licks today along with a metronome and drone that I don't want to play anything else like my usual noodling stuff.
One day, I want to be called to play steel on a session for a big time major label star, and I'll only play licks from Jeff's instructional course note for note...You guys think they'll notice? Or would that be an "unethical" thing to do?  |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 9 Feb 2020 10:05 am
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You should make your own licks and phrases from those instructional courses. Take one of the Newman phrases that you like, then pick out just a tiny piece of it, maybe just three or four consecutive notes... Now try and find your own way of getting in and out of that idea. Then find a zillion more ways. It's fun.
It's not even about being original, but more so about gaining the flexibility to fit ideas and phrases in any context. If you only know how to play those Newman licks the way he wrote them, it would be nearly impossible to tie them all together in a fluid way with a band.
To answer your question, yes it would be obvious. Not that it's specifically a Jeff Newman exercise, but that something is being phoned in, and your phrasing will never quite fit. If you want to play that perfect steel phrase between the vocal, you really have to focus in on what the singer (and bassist) are doing, and support and enhance what they are laying down. The entry/exit points of those phrases between the vocal are so important. |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 9 Feb 2020 1:29 pm
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| i think one of the great things about the jeff newman course is that you'll start feeling good playing his licks, but it's almost like he designed them to be improvised with. i feel like they do a great job at showing you how playing melodically and harmonically works. they are a great foundation to work from. i think if you really dig playing them, you'll naturally start to build your own vocabulary from them. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 9 Feb 2020 3:28 pm
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| Jeff told me, that, his teaching ideas and methods were designed to get you playing the steel. But, he also had more involved courses to help you further your playing. Eventually you'll start to connect the dots and add your own style to the mix, so no,I don't see a problem using Jeff's licks if you're comfortable with them and having fun. But, in time, you'll see the advantage of knowing them and using them along with your own to enhanse your repertoire or " bag of tricks ". We've all used someone else's phrases along with our own in order to complete a song . There's nothing wrong with that and as you become more proficient you'll see how they can be added to the mix. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 10 Feb 2020 2:37 pm
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I once saw an interview with a famous guitarist, I think it was Jimi Hendrix, where he said something that caught my attention: He said that when he listens to guitar players, originality is something very far down the list of things he looks for. This was a surprise, since his own playing was so new and original.
I think that's what I was trying to say with this silly thread: Playing these Newman licks is not original, but they are TIMELESS and convey the essence (to me) of the pedal steel sound. So, you probably could play them forever, changing little things here and there, and you wouldn't get tired of them.
| Brett Lanier wrote: |
| It's not even about being original, but more so about gaining the flexibility to fit ideas and phrases in any context. |
Bingo. I wish I could have said it that way, Brett. I'm going to play these over and over until I can naturally come up with my own phrases for any context or chord changes.
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Now I will have to hunt down and learn the amazing Hal & Weldon speed picking run...Though learning anything with the word "speed picking" in it always makes me a bit uneasy  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Feb 2020 3:08 pm
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| Quote: |
| One day, I want to be called to play steel on a session for a big time major label star, and I'll only play licks from Jeff's instructional course note for note...You guys think they'll notice? |
Seriously? I think that the less you have to offer, the less you'll get called. Thinking that one set of licks will make you good enough to land session work in a major studio is like thinking the Beatles were the only rock band. There's a WORLD of music out there, and you'd best be learning all that you can if you want to get called.  |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 10 Feb 2020 3:18 pm
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Donny, I don't plan on ever being a session musician, except maybe only for that one-time session I mentioned
Also, The Beatles were not a rock band, they were a pop band...The Rolling Stones were a rock band  |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2020 6:48 pm
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| It is ok to learn and play those licks. It is a good foundation for you to explore. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 8:27 am
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
| Donny, I don't plan on ever being a session musician... |
Then...why would you ever expect a major label or star to call you for a session? Session work, especially big-time session work, takes special skills.
Jeff was a great teacher, and most of what he taught was very good stuff. But no single player should ever be your whole focus. As you progress, you will develop your own unique style, a style composed of you and everyone you've been exposed to.
Your enthusiasm is to be commended! Good luck on your journey.  |
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Adam Tracksler
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 8:41 am
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You are asking a niche question to the niche forum of what is possibly the nerdiest instrument ever conceived. 😂😂
For 98% of the planet.... nope they won’t notice. Most of them haven’t picked up on guitarists just playing a pentatonic scale solo or a I IV vi V progression for 83% of the music they hear.
When I was playing more bass, most of my lines were stolen from groove is in the heart, just taken apart and remixed. Now I’m back to pedal steel and just working on chords, but these things build up and evolve.
If it makes you happy it can’t be all that bad, right? |
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Mike Bacciarini
From:
Arizona
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 11:13 am
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Interesting point about the phrase "rock band". I think of the (early) Beatles as a rock band playing pop, just like I think of the Buckaroos as a rock band that played country, and Poco as a rock band that played country-rock. Buffalo Springfield, Moby Grape... don't get me started! There's something about that instrumentation: Drums, bass, and 2 or 3 guitars. If one of the guitars happen to be driven by Tom Brumley or Rusty Young, all the better. I'm currently in what I call a 4-piece rock band playing folk-rock. Done with my hi-jack... I play licks I've copied, as well as my own interpretations. It's all about the net result... does it complement the song?
_________________
MCI Arlington S-10 3+5, George L E-66, BJS & Emmons bars, Fender Stage Lead II 100W 1x12, Fender Satellite SFX, custom FX rack, 1983 Dobro 60D, SX-8 lap steel, Martin D16GT, Ibanez AS73, 1978 Rickenbacker 4000 custom. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 11:59 am
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| Brett Lanier wrote: |
It's not even about being original, but more so about gaining the flexibility to fit ideas and phrases in any context. If you only know how to play those Newman licks the way he wrote them, it would be nearly impossible to tie them all together in a fluid way with a band.
To answer your question, yes it would be obvious. Not that it's specifically a Jeff Newman exercise, but that something is being phoned in, and your phrasing will never quite fit. If you want to play that perfect steel phrase between the vocal, you really have to focus in on what the singer (and bassist) are doing, and support and enhance what they are laying down. The entry/exit points of those phrases between the vocal are so important. |
This is one of the best things I've seen on this forum. It seems so obvious when someone says it, but it's a struggle to some degree for all of us.
There's only so many notes available and only so many ways you can combine them to fit within a song or genre. In my opinion, the ability to either replicate or deviate from the same old tropes and licks is not the primary thing that makes you effective - it's your ability to tinker with and manipulate them.
It's also SO much easier to tinker with and sew together other people's phrases than create your own, but you still need to have a good enough sense of flow to not have the seams show too much. If you develop that skill, I bet you can go along way while only using another person's "vocabulary" of licks and phrases... and that no one will notice or care.
This thread caught my attention because I recently did some heavy borrowing from Eric Heywood for a project I'm working on for a singer-songwriter. He's new to having steel guitar in his songs, so I thought I'd record a little "proof of concept" piece on steel guitar with several phrases, licks, etc. for one of his songs so that he could listen to it and tell me if it fit with his vision of the song - and then I could use the elements of that recording to create the accompaniment for his song. I noticed that the chord progression was similar to a live recording of an Eric Heywood steel guitar ride I saw on YouTube that had great flow. I created something that both he and I were really happy with by taking the backbone of that ride, tweaking the the poignant licks, and then replacing the rest with filler and phrasing that was more appropriate for the song. I don't see why a person can't go a long way just from doing that. It was certainly better than most of what I can come up with when I start from scratch. I don't think any steel player listening to it would say it sounds like I stole from Eric Heywood. They'd be more likely to say that I was playing in the style of Eric Heywood. And when Eric Heywood originally played it, some other steel player probably told him he was playing in the style of someone that came before him... and so on. In that way, it becomes a series of steel players pursuing a common vision standing on the shoulders of the person who came before them.
| Brett Lanier wrote: |
| The entry/exit points of those phrases between the vocal are so important. |
That was the bane of my existence for a long time... and still doesn't always come automatically to me. To me, that's what separates more "elevated" steel playing from the old classic country style of coming in and finishing your phrases like clockwork. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 12:30 pm
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| Jeff always said to break away from Tab as soon as possible. Meaning that Instructional Material is a great launch pad to individualism, I presume. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 7:19 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| This thread caught my attention because I recently did some heavy borrowing from Eric Heywood for a project I'm working on for a singer-songwriter. He's new to having steel guitar in his songs, so I thought I'd record a little "proof of concept" piece on steel guitar with several phrases, licks, etc. for one of his songs so that he could listen to it and tell me if it fit with his vision of the song - and then I could use the elements of that recording to create the accompaniment for his song. I noticed that the chord progression was similar to a live recording of an Eric Heywood steel guitar ride I saw on YouTube that had great flow. I created something that both he and I were really happy with by taking the backbone of that ride, tweaking the the poignant licks, and then replacing the rest with filler and phrasing that was more appropriate for the song. I don't see why a person can't go a long way just from doing that. It was certainly better than most of what I can come up with when I start from scratch. I don't think any steel player listening to it would say it sounds like I stole from Eric Heywood. They'd be more likely to say that I was playing in the style of Eric Heywood. And when Eric Heywood originally played it, some other steel player probably told him he was playing in the style of someone that came before him... and so on. In that way, it becomes a series of steel players pursuing a common vision standing on the shoulders of the person who came before them. |
I just uploaded it to the internet if you guys want to hear and compare for yourselves. I recorded it on my cell phone:
https://soundcloud.com/curt-trisko/holding-onto-water-proof-of-concept
And here's the Eric Heywood steel guitar ride that it's more or less ripped off from: https://youtu.be/Mhz_MYkxIXw?t=173
My point is that as long as you can mold licks and phrases together without the seams showing too much, you can copy your favorite players a ton before it becomes obvious... and in fact, you'll probably create more effective work for having done so. |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Feb 2020 10:21 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
I just uploaded it to the internet if you guys want to hear and compare for yourselves. I recorded it on my cell phone:
https://soundcloud.com/curt-trisko/holding-onto-water-proof-of-concept
And here's the Eric Heywood steel guitar ride that it's more or less ripped off from: https://youtu.be/Mhz_MYkxIXw?t=173
My point is that as long as you can mold licks and phrases together without the seams showing too much, you can copy your favorite players a ton before it becomes obvious... and in fact, you'll probably create more effective work for having done so. |
Thanks for the links, Curt. I like the RayLamontagne with Eric Heywood song. Never heard of them before and they sound good...Very Waylonesque. Your playing sounds good too, also reminds me of Waylon for some reason. It'll be even better when you record it with a proper mic. That kind of steel playing would make any singer-sonwriter's music better.
To tell you the truth, I really want to copy Lloyd Green and Ralph Mooney instead of Jeff Newman, but those guys are too good, and they didn't tab out their licks in courses like Jeff...So I'm happy to play Jeff's licks for now.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Then...why would you ever expect a major label or star to call you for a session? Session work, especially big-time session work, takes special skills. |
Donny, I suspect it might go down something like this:
Alan Jackson talking to his record producer:
"You know, Producer, We've been using Franklin on all our sessions, and he's good, I like Paul...Problem is, he's too good. He's making all these other steel guys feel inadequate. Let's try something different this time...We need someone more rough-around-the-edges. It'll give these steel guys a little hope. They don't have it easy, you know, learning that thing...I know! Let's get that guy from the internet who says he only plays Newman licks!"....And that's where I come in...And then never get called back because I'd play my Newman licks in the wrong place: Over Alan Jackson's singing instead of in between the lines
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2020 3:14 pm
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
Thanks for the links, Curt. I like the RayLamontagne with Eric Heywood song. Never heard of them before and they sound good...Very Waylonesque. Your playing sounds good too, also reminds me of Waylon for some reason. It'll be even better when you record it with a proper mic. That kind of steel playing would make any singer-sonwriter's music better |
Thanks for the compliment, Jacek! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Feb 2020 3:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| We've been using Franklin on all our sessions, and he's good, I like Paul...Problem is, he's too good. He's making all these other steel guys feel inadequate. Let's try something different this time...We need someone more rough-around-the-edges. It'll give these steel guys a little hope. They don't have it easy, you know, learning that thing...I know! Let's get that guy from the internet who says he only plays Newman licks!". |
Really? I mean...really???
Being a novice is one thing; we've all been there. But being naive is quite another. Rather than hope the steel parts get easier, why don't you get better?
Forgive me. It was just a thought.  |
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Bobby Hearn
From:
Henrietta, Tx
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Posted 14 Feb 2020 8:52 am
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| LOL!!! Is it too dim in here? |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Feb 2020 9:58 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Rather than hope the steel parts get easier, why don't you get better? |
Donny, great advice! I do plan on getting better. Getting better is my "plan B," in case I'm away from the phone when Alan Jackson calls and I miss the big opportunity. To be honest, I'm starting to doubt whether I'd be able to deliver the goods, because I recently learned that Alan has VERY high expectations from his steel players.
In an interview with Lloyd Green (Watch it here), Lloyd talks about a session he did for Alan Jackson's Christmas Album, in which Alan ended up deleting all his steel parts and replacing them with a bunch of background vocals! If Lloyd Green can't cut it with Alan Jackson, what hope do I have!?
Based on Lloyd's experience, when Alan Jackson calls me, I will show up with my steel guitar, but instead of playing Newman licks, I'll just sing some background vocals instead! I think I have a better chance this way. Singing background vocals is easy. You just go "Oooooh," and "Ahhhhhhhh." Anyone can do it! That is what Lloyd Green should have done. I'm surprised that LLoyd, with all his experience, was not able to accurately gauge and deliver what the session really needed: More background vocals! It just goes to show that even the greatest still have areas they could improve upon. |
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Clark Doughty
From:
KANSAS
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Posted 16 Feb 2020 9:37 am Will Anyone Notice
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| BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION.....YEAH I THINK THEY WILL NOTICE, THAT IS THEY WILL NOTICE THAT YOU ARE PROBABLY A BETTER PLAYER THAN 9 OUT OF 10 PLAYERS.....CLARK |
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