''Question About The Peterson Tuner''

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

This is a puzzle to me and maybe some others also . Please understand that i'm not making any rash judgement about these tuners . Some of my friends sware by them and think there isn't anything like them . Here is the question that i have . I tuned up to one last Saturday at the jam and i wasn't close to being in tune . I used the Newman pre-sets and it wasn't pleasing to my ear . I had to re-tune my guitar . I would like to know how this can be ? Please educate me on this . Again i'm not being mean in any way . This is so puzzeling to me . Help me if you can . Best regards , Gary .

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The pre-programmed settings are not for everyone. I use a Peterson but have my own settings programmed into it as I use a modified (modified for my guitar) Newman settings with the E's referenced to zero. The user programmable memories are a big plus.

It also depends on which model Peterson. The VS-II has the Newman settings with the E's (on the E9th) referenced to +10 cents (+2.5hz). The newer Stobe O Flip has both the Newman settings at the +10 cents and also with the E (on the E9th) referenced to Zero.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Gary, get a new ear! (Ha! Ha!)

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

My old Sho~Bud has a lot of unique (nice way of putting it) cabinet drop, so the Peterson presets are not as effective. But on the Carters, they were dead-on.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Gary, as I said in another thread a steel guitar has to be tuned to itself. The old timers know this and it took me years to realize. The old timers didn't have meters and if you listen to Rugg, Emmons, Green or Brumley they are in tune. I tried to rely on numbers off a tuner. You can't. No one chart will tune all steel guitars. There are factors such as cabinet drop to account for. If you learn to tune your steel guitar by ear and then progam your Peterson to those numbers you will be a happy player. Whether you tune beats out of your third and sixth intervals or tune straight 440 is another factor. I have alot of respect for the old timers. This is assuming that you have a steel thats in good regulation. If your guitar is out of regulation and maintenance nothing will keep it in tune.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 September 2006 at 04:58 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 September 2006 at 05:00 PM.]

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Thanks guys . Bobbe behave yourself ,i know you dont use any tuner! Maybe you could lend me ''your ears '' ! My Sho~Buds have very little cabinet drop and the 442.5 would never work on these guitars . The tuning that i used was the temper tuning and not 442.5 . What i did was tune my ''E'S '' to 440 and tune the rest to my ears and then plugged in my ''Boss TU-12'' tuner and made a chart and my guitars sound much better than using these temper tunings . Gary .

[This message was edited by Gary Preston on 25 September 2006 at 05:08 PM.]

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

I use one on my Carter and my new Williams and I feel it's as close as you can get,especially in a noisy club setting.

------------------
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

Robert Leaman · From: Murphy, North Carolina, USA

Since I began with steel guitar in 1946, I didn't even think about such a device as a tuner. I carried a concert A tuning fork, which if held over the guitar pickup, made a concert A tone. I learned to tune by ear using intervals. Now, I have Sabine Chromatic tuner which only provides an E (4th string on E9th neck) and a C 3rd string on C6th neck). All the other strings are tuned by ear using intervals. No one has ever told me that I am not in tune. I suppose that since I tune for beatless intervals, I am not using a tempered tuning. Neither the band nor I care about that since they tell me it sounds good. I don't know if my Sierra Session D10 has cabinet drop but I suspect that if so, it is negligible (adj. that which can be disregarded or neglected, trifling).

David Doggett · Posted 25 Sep 2006 7:53 pm

Gary, as far as I know, Jeff never explained how he arrived at his tunings that are programmed in the Peterson. They seem to be very close to just intonation (untempered and beatless) with a moderate amount of cabinet drop. They are very close to what most people would get if they tuned the Es to his reference, and tuned the rest of the strings and stops by ear to the most common intervals and chords played. It seems likely he used the guitars he had at hand to come up with a sort of average tuning for the average modern pedal steel. But no individual guitar is exactly average. The system you have used in the past, of taking a reference for the Es and tuning by ear and writing down what the meter shows, should also work on the Peterson. You just have to set up your own presets. For some people who have guitars similar to the ones Jeff used to develop his chart, maybe his chart or the Peterson stock preset works okay.

I know some people get irritated by complex discussions of this stuff, but the pedal steel is actually one of the most complicated instruments to tune. The orchestral strings are fretless like steel, but they only have four strings, and tune them to 4ths or 5ths, which are essentially identical for just intonation or equal temper. But steel has 3rds, 6ths and 7ths, for which there are many tuning systems possible. Tuning the beats out by ear (just intonation or JI) is one, and tuning straight up to a meter (equal temper or ET) is another. But unlike equal tempered instruments such as keyboards and harps, steel can have movable JI chords that can play JI intervals in any key. So we have alot of choice in tuning systems, and that causes much confusion and controversy. Even the top pros do not agree on how to tune a pedal steel. So we all just have to play around with the different systems and find out what works best for our ears and our guitars. In the end, our ears are the final judges, not charts or meters.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 25 Sep 2006 8:01 pm

I don't use any device other than my ears to tune the strings and pedals. It's not perfect but hey what is? The most problematic part for me is getting the e to f knee lever raise change temper tuned to the rest of the notes already in tune. The rest is pretty straight ahead. When I listen to myself on recordings I sound very in tune so I guess it works for me. Not putting down the electronic methods of tuning when I say this. I play an Emmons.

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 25 September 2006 at 09:02 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

One of the biggest benefits of the Peterson for me was the way the E9 presets locked in the E-F lever. First time it ever sounded in tune to me.

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

David Doggett · Posted 26 Sep 2006 6:27 am

Thanks, Jeff. That makes perfect sense. If I start with the same reference Es and tune the rest by ear, when I check the meter it is very close to Jeff's chart. I would imagine the same would be true for most people tuning a typical modern pedal steel by ear. The trick in tuning by ear is to know which strings to tune to which chord, and to know which string is the reference for each chord, that is left untouched while the other strings are tuned to it. It is not always the root of the chord. In the following thread, I explain how to do it step by step.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013437.html

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 September 2006 at 08:18 AM.]

Kyle Everson · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Thanks, David. I plan to try that today at practice. I usually tune by ear when the environment permits. Normally I go by the harmonic tune-up process in Winnie Winston's book.

------------------
Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

from http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php
here is Jeff's tuning chart:



Open       A        B        C        D        E         F        G        X


F# 441.5                                                          G 441.5 	 


D# 439                                D 439/C# 438.5 	  	  	 


G# 439             A 441 	  	  	  	  	  	 


E  442.5                   F# 439.5           D# 440.5   F 435.5 	  	 


B  442    C# 438.5         C# 438.5                                        A# 442.5


G# 439             A 441 	  	  	  	  	  	 


F# 441.5                                                          G 441.5 	 


E  442.5                                      D# 440.5   F 435.5 	  	 


D  441.5              


B  442    C# 438.5                                                         A# 442.5

.
.
Same table, with frequencies expressed as deviation from ET in cents, using 4 Hz = 1 cent:



F#  + 6                                                            G +6


D#  - 4                         D -4 / C# -6


G#  - 4          A +4


E   +10                F# -2                  D# +2   F -18


B   + 8    C# -6       C# -6                                       A# +10


G#  - 4          A +4


F#  + 6                                                            G +6


E   +10                                       D# +2   F -18


D   + 6


B   + 8    C# -6

.
.
sort these for easy comparision of intervals:



E#  - 18


A#  + 10


D#  +  2


G#  -  4


C#  -  6


F#  +  6


B   +  8


E   + 10


A   +  4


D   +  6  (or -4 for high D)


G   +  6

.
.
As in any just tuning system, some of these intervals will sound very good, some not so good, and some cannot be used at all. For example, you can see that Jeff could never have played F# and C# at the same time. Other unusable intervals in this system would include A-F#, A#-F#, G-B, D#-A#, A#-E#. Also, his high D (2nd string) would not fit with A or F# or the low D string. So you can be sure that Jeff avoided those intervals in his playing style.

I am kinda surprised that Jeff gave up the F# to A# interval by tuning the A# so high, because I don't see any intervals that sound good with it, except G - A#, which I doubt that he used much.

If this tuning chart doesn't work for you, it may be on account of you playing intervals that Jeff avoided.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I have an open F# on the 1st string and a pedaled F# on the 4th string. They aren't tuned the same. Look at Jeff's chart above (thanks, Ernest). Same problem.

How does the Peterson tuner know which F# you're trying to tune?

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

David you have said just what i did also before posting this thread . Then i plugged in my tuner (Boss-TU-12) and made a chart from that . I found out it came out very close to Jeff Newmans first chart that someone said that Lloyd Green tuned his guitar to . I have to agree that all guitars will not tune up the same way ! How can any Steel Guitar be in tune straigh up at 440 across the strings ??? Thats another post i know ! Again thanks for all your
input ,i feel better now . Best regards , Gary .

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

There is no reason why E's shouldn't be smack on at 440 if you have a guitar with no cabinet drop like a LeGrande III, Push Pull, or some others. It just doesn't make sense. You would be tuning sharp of your own band.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

David Doggett · Posted 26 Sep 2006 8:00 pm

b0b, you misunderstood. In Jeff Agnew's post above, he said that Jeff Newman once told him that he (Newman) had Lloyd Green tune a guitar by ear. Then he checked everything with a meter, and that is where Newman's chart first came from. I don't think anyone meant to imply that Lloyd himself ever used such a chart.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Mr Doggett, when I've talked to him, as I have regularly for a couple years, he's never said anything about tuning any special metered way. No "cents sharp or flat by some 200$ Virtual Strobe Tuner". I saw, and indeed touched the old round chromatic tuner he uses.

"Tune the &**(*% thing, and PLAY it." is the direct quote I can directly and have permission to relay from Mr Green on the subject.

I'll have to ask him if he is indeed the "author" of the Jeff Newmann Tuning Chart.

That would be very interesting.

Mr Emmons's comments on the subject should still be available on b0b's HDDs.

I hope you guys get it figured out.

I know I did.

EJL

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Eric, I think you've misunderstood David's post above. A closer re-reading should resolve your confusion.

David Doggett · Posted 26 Sep 2006 8:46 pm

Kevin, right, if there is no cabinet drop, the open Es and the B pedal As can be straight up 440. It looks like the guitar used for Newman's chart had about 6 cents cabinet drop. If he put the Es 6 cents sharp (441.5), his As would be 440. Some people (Paul Franklin for one) tune 1 Hz (4 cents) sharp to add some "stretch" tuning to account for the register of the E on the 4th string. That would put Newman's Es at 442.5, which is where they are on one of his charts. If it was me, I would not want to have either the Es or As 6 cents off. Anything over 5 cents is noticeable. I would split the difference. I would tune the Es 3 cents sharp (440.75), and let the As drop 3 cents flat. This makes both very tolerable when playing open at the nut. I guess with the "stretch" added, the Es would be 7 cents sharp or 441.75, call it 442.

The F# on string 7 cannot be compatible as both the 5th of a B chord with strings 5 and 10 as roots, and as the root for the F#m chord with the B pedal stop as the minor 3rd. I tune the F# on string 7 straight up as the 5th of the B chord (my Bs are tuned straight up as the 5ths of the E chord). That straight up F# on string 7 also works well as the 2nd or 9th of the E scale. For the root of the F#m chord, I raise my 8th string E to F# on the C pedal. I tune it (by ear) about 16 cents below the B pedal stop A, so that the A is an appropriate JI minor 3rd. I tune the other C pedal stops (by ear) to match the 8th string stop (16 cents below the B pedal stop). In addition to solving the tuning conflict for the root of the F#m chord, I like the sound of that 8th string pull with the B and C pedals.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 September 2006 at 10:32 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

That was my conclusion Dave. I have never seen a guitar with 6 cents cabinet drop, and if I did I wouldn't play it. My ZB has 2 cents. Barely noticeble. 3 cents on the six string with the A pedal, so I pull th temper in to -10. I tune pedals down to the E's straight up. F# 7th string is straight up. This Newman charts never made any sense to me.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 26 September 2006 at 10:05 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 26 Sep 2006 10:35 pm

Well, if you ignore the cabinet drop and any "stretch" compensation, and shift the whole thing so the Es are straight up or 0 cents, then much of the Newman tuning is pure JI, which makes sense if Lloyd (or Newman, or whoever) set it up by ear. The major 3rds are around -14 cents, and the minor 3rds are around +16 cents, as they should be for JI. The roots and 5ths are all withing a few cents of straight up, except for the whole C# chord with the A and F combination, which is over 20 cents flat (but the intervals within the chord are close to JI, which makes it sound good except at the nut). The 6ths (C#) are -16 cents, as they should be. This also makes the same C#s work as the roots of C#m (the relative minor of E), because the Es (which are straight up) will be 16 cents above those -16 C# roots, as they should be as minor 3rds. I'm puzzled by the Ds, which as the 7b should be around +16 cents. All you have to do to get them right is tune them by ear as the minor 3rds of Bm, with the straight up Bs on strings 5 and 10 as the roots. At +16 cents the Ds will be good JI as the minor 3rds of that Bm, and also as the minor 7ths of the E chord. It's amazing how little conflict pure JI causes for the commonly used chords and scales of the E9 tuning. On the other hand, who knows how many odd changes were tried and rejected because they couldn't be tuned.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic