Thoughts on 12 string vs 10…hard to change?

Jeff V. Jones · From: Texas, USA

I would like your thoughts on changing from a 10 string to a 12 string, and any difficulty associated with doing so. Thank you for your input.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

More info needed to address your ? properly.

Assuming you are referencing a single neck 10 string E9 pedal steel, moving to a 12 string is not all that difficult if going to an extended E9 tuning. There's just 2 more octave strings added to the bottom.

If you are thinking about 12 string Universal tuning, yes, there would be a learning curve.

If you are going from a standard E9/C6 D10 to a Universal 12, there again quite a few differences.

Any of these issues can be easily overcome with a little examination and practice though. Just depends on what configuration you are considering for the 12 string.

If you are talking lap or console steels, I dunno.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

There is a slight difference in the string spacing and in the visual orientation of the strings. It’s not a big deal though. That part comes easy.
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Bob

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I played a D-10 for 8 years before switching to U-12. I woodshedded for two weeks, then took it out on the job.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Similar experience here - no big deal
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Your mileage may vary! I play both regular E9 and extended with low G#+E and have few problems adjusting. Some people just can’t get used to 12 but that number is small.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

For me, it didn't take that long to adjust to a 12-string extended E9. Now I wouldn't play any other tuning. I love having those 2 bass strings.

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

If its universal 12 from a double 10, adapting to the new B6 part not as easy the E9 which I agree is no problem
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

One simple advantage of E9th/B6th is the fret positions are the same. You've been playing open B7th with B pedal and Eb lever when playing E9th tuning. Simply release the B pedal to play B6. Now learn the B6th pedals. They are the same pulls as C6th.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Since acquiring my new D13th 12-string Williams, I have been pleasantly surprised by the fact that, even after two or three days on the new guitar, I can sit at my D10 without any loss of facility.

Of course, the new tuning is posing some challenges, but that's to be expected.

I'm pleased that, while many grips on the new guitar are different, it doesn't seem to impede me on the one I've known for all these years.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Gordon Hartin · From: Durham, NC

Visually it is pretty hard if you orientate from the low string to the high ones. I ended up taking a sharpie to my 8th string for the first 3 months to get used to a 12 string. The spacing can be the same or different depending on the builder. I like having an ext E9 because it gives the range of a normal guitar.

Gordon

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

12 Is The New 10 ! LOL

Not much of a problem for me to switch.
The 1st couple weeks I painted the 8th string with a red magic marker.
My D-10,.. Was a little too heavy,..
Like a 9 pound hammer,.. for my size.
I didn't get the C6th pedals when I started playing.

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Ken:

That is stunning!! Congratulations...
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think it's all in what you get used to. I gave a local player lessons for about a year, and he had a D12. When I'd sit down at his guitar, the expanded coverage gave me a problem now and then, but as long as I played the Nashville/country stuff (which is what he wanted to learn), it wasn't a big problem. The two extra strings do give you some fuller chord possibilities, but I feel they're not beneficial for commercial country, either old or new. But if you play rock, or jazz, or western swing, I can see they could probably come in real handy, especially for copping straight guitar licks and chords.

When I was in the market for a new steel, I considered if I should buy an U12 instead of another D10, but my practical side told me I didn't need more strings or pedals at this point in my so-called "musical career". I always thought Chalker did phenomenal stuff on the standard C6th with only 10 strings, about as good as anyone I'd heard with 12 or more strings. Well, I figured I'd never get to that playing level, so I bought the D10.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I move between standard 10-string E9 and 12-string universal pretty routinely. I mostly have to remind myself that I've made the switch and take a few minutes to re-adjust my grips.

I also play guitar in a wide variety of tunings - standard and a pile of different open tunings for slide and other fingerstyle guitar. Same thing there - I need to take a minute and re-adjust my grips when I change tunings, which I sometimes do from song to song.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

When I was still on the D10 but contemplating the change to U12, I tuned the C6 down to B6 to get used to the geography. It made the change easier when it came.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Keith Bolog · From: Wisconsin, USA

The point I was making is that the E9-U12 is super easy to adapt to vs C6 er uh B6.

Its not the B6 fret position - I am definitely sacrificing some pedal and KL combos on universal B6. At least I havent invented a matched copedent yet and Ive tried. I might concoct one that has all my needs on B6 and make the sacrifices on the E9 part.

But for those who dont play much C6 the B6 is adequate. Cheers
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Sustainability is unsustainable

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

It's true that if you have a very loaded C6 you can't take it all with you to a B6 uni.
But I have all the standard changes with the exception of the 3rd string half step raise, which I can get by other means. If I want to raise the 6th string half a step I can obviously do that too.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

I'm one of the guys who gave up after about a YEAR! I got a new Excel E9/C6 single neck. It was an amazing machine, and you flipped a 'gearshift" to move between the two tunings. In the E9 position, the two extra strings were at the bottom, and in C6 the two extra strings were at the top. The extra strings were really harmonically useful too. After a year I was kind of getting the hang of the E9, but would still frequently screw up my grips. On the C6 I was constantly lost. I learned some new licks on the upper strings, but would immediately crash if I happen to go on "autopilot". I thankfully was able to sell it to someone who appreciated it (thanks Greg), and bought an Excel D10 which I love because it understands me.
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc...

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I’m another one who couldn’t make the switch from D-10 to 12 string universal. After deciding to commit to the Uni, I sold my Zum D-10 & bought a pair of Zum 12 string Universals with locking levers. I just couldn’t make the transition. Both my E9th & C6th playing consistently suffered . About 9 months in, I sold them both, bought a D-10 Legrande & have never looked back. I guess I’m just an old dog that can’t learn new tricks.

Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

Arf
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc...

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I can appreciate the difficulty, especially if you've played C6 for some time. I never did. I worked through BE's Basic C6 course (among other things) with the rear neck tuned down to B, so by the time I made the change I was used to reading tab a fret higher, and enjoying the fact that the key of C isn't at the nut!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I play out a lot and am not a big C6th guy.
I play a few 6th type songs and I use the 5 & 6 pedals on boogie tunes. most of it I can find on E9th.
After working on "How to play 6th style on E9th courses" I wanted a little more than was available on 10 string E9th.
I wanted to be able to play Boot heel Drag! LOL
Plus the weight factor and I rarely get C6th type requests live.
They don't call it the two week neck by accident.
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

The "two week neck." Laughing

I remember the E9th neck referred to as "the money neck."
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I recall Andy Reiss telling me about the studio steel player who, seconds before he's about to do the overdub on C6th on a whim, hears a voice sounding in his ear:

"Think of your family!"

Apocryphal, no doubt, but amusing.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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