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Topic: Push pull vs All Pull |
Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 10:51 am |
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Ok, I hope this doesn’t unleash the beast....
I’m ready to buy my second steel guitar. Right now, my main squeeze is a Mullen RP D10. I love it, and have no plans to sell it.
I would like to add an SD10 or SD12 as my second guitar. I’m really torn between getting a vintage push pull Emmons or a modern all pull guitar (maybe a Williams, another Mullen, or a Lashley Legrande)
I have read many opinions on both. My best deduction is that they all sound good, but different from each other.
Where I get confused is with the stability/maintenance requirements of an push pull guitar. Some people seem to think that trying to get a push pull guitar in tune (and keep it in tune) is an ordeal.....while others say no big deal, just a different process.
I don’t want to buy something that I can’t keep in tune and use regularly. I imagine that a vintage guitar will require some more maintenxence, but I’m ok with that so long as the result is a playable, great sounding guitar. I’m not experienced working on steel guitars, but I am capable of learning (and plan to).
I’d love to hear some opinions from people who have owned (or own) both. |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 11:18 am
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Unleashing the beast 
As a long-time and current owner of both types, I agree with the general consensus that has been brought forth in many discussions here and elsewhere. A push-pull Emmons in good condition and properly adjusted can play nearly as well as an all-pull guitar, and in some ways better in my opinion. Once adjusted and “locked down”, they stay in tune at least as good if not better than an all-pull.
A big advantage could be gained by learning how to properly adjust the push-pull yourself as needed. They are different animals, but really quite simple once you get your head around how they work. If you need a bunch of splits and multiple raises and lowers then they ultimately might not suit you, but the tone of a good PP is special to my ear indeed. Even though you might not play it exclusively, I would think you would really enjoy having one in the stable!
Merely my $.02, for whatever that’s worth  :
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 11:36 am
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Wow Tommy thats the best worded statement about a push pull that I’ve read here on the Forum.
My thoughts are every pedal steel player should try a push pull before they hang up there picks. Seems most modern steel brands sound good but the same. A good push pull you can here the difference in tone it’s like taking old strings off a acoustic guitar an putting on a brand new set of strings just clean clear tone on each string. |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 12:13 pm
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Charley -
Once properly set-up, you shouldn't have any problems tuning your Push-Pull (other than perhaps minor tweaks at the changer end - which you do now with your Mullen). Same as with All-Pull D10 LeGrande I owned.
Prior to purchase of your Push-Pull (and Yes, you Will buy one), I suggest you Play it, in order to feel the different pressure your foot has to apply to engage the foot pedals.
Push-Pull floor pedals aren't as easy to push down as All-Pull floor pedals (if that's an issue for you) |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 12:18 pm
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Tuning a push/pull is really not that hard. It's just ass-backwards from every other type of stringed instrument. (Meaning that you just have to remember that you don't tune the open strings with the tuning keys.)
What is hard is changing the setup, and getting everything balanced out so that it works properly. 
I don't recommend them. But then again, I don't really recommend the brand that I play either!  |
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Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 12:34 pm
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Thanks for the responses!
I’ve read the sticky at the top of the forum on tuning a. Pp....it is helpful, and as I suspected, not rocket science. It just seems like it takes a few different moves to tune one up right compared to an all pull guitar.
I’m reading up on the different eras and styles of Emmons guitars....I’d love to get one, Seems like a cut tail is what I’m after. Any advice on eras or styles?
Thanks! |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 12:42 pm
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Hi Donny -
Lets not try to confuse the possibly uninformed
After being properly set-up, the First step in tuning a Push Pull is tuning all Open Strings with the Tuning Keys
IF needed, raises and lowers (ie, via pedals and levers), are then tuned at changer end of guitar. |
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Karen Sarkisian
From:
Boston, MA, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 1:00 pm
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I have owned a few push pulls as well as a few all pull guitars in the shortish time I've been playing. To me, the holy grail of steel guitar tone is a push pull emmons played well. that being said, if they were as issue free as the all pull guitars, they would probably still be being made.
when I was gigging a lot my perfectly set up push pull would need a lot more tweaking to set up before a gig, it was heavier, and was very succeptible to temp changes, etc. It was also not as easy to play (for me) as an all pull guitar. Plus there are a lots of parts and things that can come loose underneath, which would make me nervous.
I would probably not own a push pull guitar if I didnt live an hour away from Tommy Cass. I love mine but I have had many times I've had to call Tommy because there was something going on that I couldnt fix myself.
_________________
Emmons, Franklin, Mullen |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 1:26 pm
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I practice and play all gigs on my push-pull. The all pull guitar only gets used if I'm having a problem with the push-pull.
I find that I have to be a bit more deliberate on the pedals and levers when playing the push-pull. I think I play better on it as a result. It's too easy to play garbage licks on the all pull guitar. Maybe I just listen better when playing the push-pull because it sounds better, so I play more musically.
Plus, I get far more unsolicited favorable comments when playing the push-pull. Audiences notice.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 15 Dec 2019 2:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Karen Sarkisian
From:
Boston, MA, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 1:31 pm
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honestly i think everyone should own a push pull at some point. its the only way to really know if they are for you. they are definitely unique and i love mine.
_________________
Emmons, Franklin, Mullen |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 1:59 pm
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| they both sound good in tune. any difference is minor and probably wont be heard in a band setup. To me I prefer to stay with the all pull because I can correct any issues that may appear almost instantly on or off stage with no new learning curve. I would much rather spend the learning curve on musical ideas. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 2:06 pm
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Karen is a smart cookie she leaves no stone unturned in her quest for tone!!
Last edited by Johnie King on 15 Dec 2019 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gary Watkins
From:
Bristol, VA
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 3:06 pm
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I don't have a PP, but I do have an Emmons SKH, and I just had it set up from Day to Emmons. I have been in the hospital sine Nov, 24, 2019, and they say I will be in this rehab hospital until after New Years, so I haven't had a chance to play it yet. I just haven't been brave enough to get a PP, YET, LOL!
_________________
If you succeed in cheating someone, don't think that the person is a fool. It's just that the person trusted you far more than you deserved. |
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Travis Wilson
From:
Johnson City, TX
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 3:21 pm
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I have a beginner question a lil off topic.
What’s the difference between push/pull & pull/release? |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 4:23 pm
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It's not owning a P/P, playing a P/P, or even learning how to adjust a P/P that concerns me. It's carrying the durn thing! I've got back problems enough already. So, for now, I will stick to my Millennium.But would love to play a P/P some day, just to see what I think.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 10:38 pm
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Travis,
Push-Pull and Pull-Release are very similar, the pp holds the open tuning via a spring loaded finger, while the pr holds the open tuning via a spring loaded rod. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 15 Dec 2019 11:57 pm P/p
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| If I remember correctly, I think the lowers are tuned first on a P/P. I like the tone Buddy C. gets on the ET Show when he intros, " Waltz Across Texas." JD Manness gets a great tone with his P/P also. My .02 !!! |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 12:32 am
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It's a bit more complicated than just saying lowers are tuned first. That statement is true for when you are assembling the raises and lowers on any given string. But once the lowers and raises are properly set the statement no longer applies.
For everyday tuning I tune the open strings at the keyhead, and usually I'm done. It is somewhat rare, but not unheard, for a pedal or lever to have drifted out of tune. If a raise is off, then you tune the raise at the keyhead, followed by tuning the open string at the end plate, bottom row. If a lower is off you address that on the top row of the end plate, just as you would an all pull guitar.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 2:30 am
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also consider this and it may sound harsh, we buy Steels with all sorts of options, splits, extra knee's extra pedals, various tunings , raise this lower that..etc...then we live in Pedal AB world with two levers rarely stretching out of the box.
I own an 81 P Pull, 8+4, its setup as my practice horn, rarely do I take it out anymore because the Legrande II 8 + 6 with all the various extra pulls is down the stairs waiting for the next gig ! Half the time I forget what pulls are on the L-II until its too late !
It's not that I don't want to take the P Pull out, I do, I just don't want to carry it down the stairs !
The P Pull is as reliable for tuning and playability as any Steel I have ever owned, including the L- II, which I think I tuned once about a year ago 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 4:56 am
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Push pulls can't do splits. That's a deal breaker for me. What good is a great sounding guitar, if it won't allow you to play your ideas?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 5:42 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Push pulls can't do splits. That's a deal breaker for me. What good is a great sounding guitar, if it won't allow you to play your ideas? |
yeah really Mike, Buddy had no good ideas.
This has really turned into a "MY FAVORITE STEEL" thing which is totally irrelevant to the topic and question.
I don't play with splits , obviously I have no good idea's. Never knew this until now.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 7:19 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Push pulls can't do splits. That's a deal breaker for me. What good is a great sounding guitar, if it won't allow you to play your ideas? |
yeah really Mike, Buddy had no good ideas.
This has really turned into a "MY FAVORITE STEEL" thing which is totally irrelevant to the topic and question.
I don't play with splits , obviously I have no good idea's. Never knew this until now. |
Tony, please... 
Mike was commenting about needing split tuning for HIS ideas, not Buddy's or anyone else's.. And he wasn't making any value judgments about anyone's ideas, good OR bad. No need to take his statements personally or feel any criticism towards your own choices.
Mike's music involves more than just traditional E9 country A+B licks, and shouldn't be compared to same in terms of what's needed in pedal steel technology.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 7:34 am
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| Ron Funk wrote: |
Hi Donny -
Lets not try to confuse the possibly uninformed
After being properly set-up, the First step in tuning a Push Pull is tuning all Open Strings with the Tuning Keys
IF needed, raises and lowers (ie, via pedals and levers), are then tuned at changer end of guitar. |
Okay Ron, here's the situation: You sit in on a friend's p/p and you notice the 5th string open is flat, and the 10th string open is sharp.
Tell me exactly what you would do to fix those issues before the song starts?  |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 7:47 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
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Tony, please...
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Maybe you are right Herb , but thats not how I took it when I read it. And its even possible that others read it the same way.,
Mike used the word "you" and "YOUR" not "me" , with regard to playing idea's. Perhaps an oversight. I get it. But I took it that without SPLITS I could not play MY idea's. Maybe I'm a simpleton.
We are in the weeds here, the topic is about P Pull maintenance, tuning etc... "keeping it in tune" .
So instead we are giving advice on other brands which some feel personally are better. That isn't what Charley asked about.
Hes asking P Pull owners their opinion on the matters at hand.
Of course Mike is a fine player, very talented , no one questions that, I know I don't, but we are not talking about MSA's being a better choice because of splits etc...
Sorry Mike , I apologize it was certainly not meant to offend. My comment was to offer a rebuttal !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 16 Dec 2019 8:06 am
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men, is there not a way to put some splits on a push pull, although tricky, I always thought it could be done?
Bill |
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