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Topic: What's this on Lloyd's ShoBud? |
Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2019 10:41 am |
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I saw this pic of Lloyd's ShoBud keyhead and wondered: what are these extra rollers on the E's? To change the angle on the nut rollers? Better tone with open strings? Less string breakage? Better return-to-pitch on raises/lowers? Kills overtones on unplayed string lengths?
Curious minds want to know!
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Jon Hyde
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2019 12:15 pm
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| Jeff Surratt posted a cool collection of photos on Facebook of Lloyd's guitar around the time that Lloyd played Dallas 2 years ago. Apparently Duane Marrs designed the pillars and Paul Franklin Sr installed them. The idea was to help with lowers - apparently it didn't help and they removed them but Lloyd, having gotten used to them added them back in. |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2019 2:41 pm
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| Interesting since Lloyd never lowered string 4. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 10 Dec 2019 3:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| Interesting since Lloyd never lowered string 4. |
That was my first thought, too. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 10 Dec 2019 3:15 pm
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| Lloyd specifically told me many years ago, he wanted to keep that guitar as original as possible. I always wondered if those rollers were on the guitar initially. No telling how many records he made with it. Nice picture. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 8:12 am
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| Craig A Davidson wrote: |
| Interesting since Lloyd never lowered string 4. |
Well, yes he did...for a short time. But evidently the old 'Bud wouldn't stay in tune with the 4th string lowering and raising. So, he took off the lower on that string.
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 9:44 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ...the old 'Bud wouldn't stay in tune with the 4th string lowering and raising. So, he took off the lower on that string. |
I purchased a beautiful new 3x2 Pro I in the mid- to late-seventies that sounded awesome. Once the "F" lever was installed, string 4 would never return to pitch after being lowered. It was the first and last 'Bud I ever owned. |
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Jay Jessup
From:
Charlottesville, VA, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 11:05 am
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| Folks please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that is a problem exclusive to Sho-Bud? I know that on his steels Bruce Zumsteg has a special device that makes sure all strings that are raised and lowered return to the correct pitch. I recall seeing a physics explanation for this on the forum once but don't recall the details however I think its only a problem with the plain strings. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 1:06 pm
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Jay, Paul Franklin (both Sr and Jr) claim Paul Franklin Sr invented the drop return compensators. When I bought my D-10 Franklin it was the only production guitar available with them (and the reason I bought it).
Bruce came later, as did Emmons and maybe others. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 2:15 pm
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Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. 
Erv |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 3:23 pm
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| Jay Jessup wrote: |
| Folks please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that is a problem exclusive to Sho-Bud? I know that on his steels Bruce Zumsteg has a special device that makes sure all strings that are raised and lowered return to the correct pitch. I recall seeing a physics explanation for this on the forum once but don't recall the details however I think its only a problem with the plain strings. |
Most, but no all of the hysteresis problem (strings not returning to pitch) is caused by friction due to the sideways pull on the nut roller. I believe this is what the devices on Lloyd's guitar are likely attempting to eliminate. The "sideways pull" was corrected by the devices, but they also added another axle, roller, and sharp bend into the equation. The result was that the while some friction was removed, some additional friction and parts were added in the process.
While the "strings not returning to pitch" can be an issue, on most guitars it's really not excessive. I've never played a guitar that was in good shape, strung properly, and lubed, where I still considered this a major issue. This isn't to say that there aren't any guitars out there where it is a serious problem. But I do think that, as with "cabinet drop", it's often an overblown issue.
IMHO, a few cents on your tuner, like a few cents in your pocket, isn't really that big of a deal. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 3:45 pm
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Jack is correct. When I was developing my own hysteresis compensation ideas, I discovered the Paul Franklin Sr patent for the compensator. And then realized I was practically “reinventing the wheelâ€. Ron Lashley also held a similar patent as I remember it.
I also had the idea that the late Gene Fields had offered a complete description of this and other “tone enhancements†similar to these rollers pictured. I don’t think gene ever put these on any emci or gfi products.
Chuck Wright had a similar set of rollers on some of the early Wright Custom offerings.
Very interested stuff here indeed.
Bill |
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James Flaherty
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2019 8:30 pm
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| I had a Shobud LDG in the early 80's and it lowered and raised strings 4 an 8. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2019 6:50 am
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| James Flaherty wrote: |
| I had a Shobud LDG in the early 80's and it lowered and raised strings 4 an 8. |
The majority of the LDG's came with the option to raise and lower. It's not the model. Lloyd actually encountered this on his fingertip and on every guitar forward opted to not have the change. Just because it's an LDG it doesn't mean it will be just like Lloyds. Lloyd also raises his E's on a different lever than LKL. I am sure most LDG's with an Emmons set-up don't do that. |
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Terry Miller
From:
Hammondsport NY USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2019 12:17 pm
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| I hired Mr. Green several years ago and when he opened the case he asked me I thought Shot would be proud of his LDG and then said he did over 5000 sessions on that guitar, amazing. |
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GaryL
From:
Medina, OH USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2019 12:32 pm
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Gene Field's keyless design has no nut rollers at all!
_________________
GFI Ultra D-10 keyless
Quilter Steelaire(s)
Telonics rack system, 12"& 15" TT Speakers, Hilton Volume |
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Tiny Olson
From:
Mohawk River Valley, Upstate NY
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Posted 13 Dec 2019 3:46 pm
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To add to the equation, I believe that Lloyd's guitar is longer in scale by 1/4 or 1/2 inch than the standard Sho-Bud 24" and that the keyhead is a compact version.
I was fortunate enough to be in attendance (late 1978) when Lloyd cut "Farewell Party" with Gene Watson on this guitar. It was arranged, charted and cut in one take (as an afterthought, Gene hadn't previously planned to record that song) with just 10 mins of studio time remaining. So very cool..!! He cut that session using a Session 400 amp.
Those pillars in the keyhead were definitely there then. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2019 6:45 am
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No wonder, after 5,000 sessions! 
Erv |
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