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Topic: Emmons or Day Set up? |
Ken Barrett
From:
Sebastian, Fl.
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 2:25 am |
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I am going to learn Pedal Steel. Which set up should I learn (Emmons or Day)? What are the advantages
?
_________________
I have played guitar for over 60 years, PSG for 5 & bass for 7 years. Currently, I play bass in a band. I also collect guitars and basses. I live in Florida on the east coast. In my picture is a 1948 Gibson Grande of mine that was used in a Hank Williams movie. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 2:59 am
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Advantages ? None. Its a personal preference. The E9th Steel is still 3 Pedals, A , B and C . With the DAY setup A and C are reversed in physical location , the Pedals do the exact same thing. The other physical differences would be the two E levers if they are on the same left side. The raise and lowers of the E's would be reversed.
If there is any differences of note, it would be that a majority of written TAB programs/instructional materials are based on the EMMONS , ABC configuration, rather than the DAY - CBA configuration. The music is exactly the same but if you are a DAY player you would have to think OPPOSITE while viewing the TAB programs. A = C and C = A , same thing with the two E Levers, they would be reversed, opposite, if they happen to both be on the left side. The E raises traditionally go with the A pedal, while the E lowers are the opposite direction. This is all about ergonomics, ease of movement.
Its not a big deal you just have to recognize that things are opposite.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 26 Aug 2019 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ken Barrett
From:
Sebastian, Fl.
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 3:04 am
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Thank you very much. This was very helpful & informative, Ken.
_________________
I have played guitar for over 60 years, PSG for 5 & bass for 7 years. Currently, I play bass in a band. I also collect guitars and basses. I live in Florida on the east coast. In my picture is a 1948 Gibson Grande of mine that was used in a Hank Williams movie. |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 4:13 am
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Both the Emmons and Day setups have typical knee lever configurations, too. If you go with the Day pedal configuration, don't forget about also ensuring your knees are set up for optimal comfort/convenience.. etc..
_________________
Tim Harr
Mullen G2 D-10 (9p/5k)
Retired, US Army Band (Steel/Dobro/Guitar)
Kemper Profiler / LW 89 |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 4:15 am
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It's been established by means of surveys that 'Emmons' is more prevalent than 'Day'. In other words, there are more steels out there with 'Emmons' pedals. There are various theories on how that came about, one of which is that Buddy himself, being the 'Bud' in Sho-Bud, had a hand in shipping out guitars with his preference.
In my case the UK supplier from whom I bought my first steel had most of his stock set up 'Day' so I knew no different from the outset.
There's an impressive list of truly great players that chose 'Day' (Tommy White, Weldon Myrick and John Hughey are just three) but the fact remains that you're more likely to encounter the 'Emmons' configuration in a steel guitar store.
Tony explains the practical side of it very clearly.
(Please ignore my signature here - it's just a bit of fun.  )
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 8:17 am
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Day, it's how the ankle naturally moves.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 8:24 am
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| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| Day, it's how the ankle naturally moves. |
I've played "Emmons" since I started well back in the previous century. Perhaps that's why, since approaching geezerhood, my left ankle has been a tad hinckey. |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 10:47 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
If there is any differences of note, it would be that a majority of written TAB programs/instructional materials are based on the EMMONS , ABC configuration, rather than the DAY - CBA configuration. The music is exactly the same but if you are a DAY player you would have to think OPPOSITE while viewing the TAB programs. |
No, this is completely wrong. No mental gymnastics involved at all.
As you correctly stated previously, the function of the A and C pedals (and the knee levers) are the same on Day and Emmons and all tab/instructional material simple refers to the pedals by letter. So, assuming you know what your pedals are called and where they are (whichever system you are using, this is essential), if the tab says A pedal, you use your A pedal. If you are a Day player, you will go for the one on the right, if you are an Emmons player, you'll go for the left but each of you know which is your A pedal so you don't think need to think opposite.
Even video tutorials shouldn't be a problem. How many Emmons players used the Jeff Newman courses? How many even realised that Jeff played Day setup and all his video demos were using that setup. My guess is not many and for those that did, I'm sure it caused no problems whatsoever.
Repeat after me...
PLAYING DAY SETUP CAUSES NO PROBLEMS WITH INSTRUCTIONAL MATERIAL!!! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 11:03 am
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Jeff is right. The answer to Ken's original question is learn whatever setup is on the first guitar you get your hands (and feet) on. If you really can't get on with it, it's always possible to change - on most instruments it's a simple mod.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 12:38 pm
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| Jeff Mead wrote: |
| Tony Prior wrote: |
If there is any differences of note, it would be that a majority of written TAB programs/instructional materials are based on the EMMONS , ABC configuration, rather than the DAY - CBA configuration. The music is exactly the same but if you are a DAY player you would have to think OPPOSITE while viewing the TAB programs. |
No, this is completely wrong. No mental gymnastics involved at all.
So, assuming you know what your pedals are called and where they are (whichever system you are using, this is essential),
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So no mental gymnastics required ASSUMING YOU KNOW what the Pedals do, which is essential.
I yield
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 1:09 pm
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If you need help deciding what is best for you, here's a simple experiment...
On your C pedal, slacken off the tuning nut that raises the E string so it no longer does anything.
You now have an ABA arrangement on the top 9 strings.
Pick strings 456 (or 345) with the B pedal engaged. Slowly engage each of your A pedals in turn by swiveling your ankle.
Does one feel more comfortable or intuitive? This should help you decide where you want your A pedal.
Last edited by Jeff Mead on 26 Aug 2019 1:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 8:30 pm
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Starting out from scratch, I'd say start with Emmons. I'll get arguments on this but:1. The guitar will be easier to sell or if you decide to or trade up. 2. The instruction material is more plentiful. 3. If you sit in on someone else's guitar, it's more likely it'll be an Emmons set up. All that said, I PLAY DAY SET UP and have from the start.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 10:29 pm
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Clyde, everything you say is true except about instructional material. As discussed above, it's the same for both. Yes, videos of feet will look different, but if you can't get your head round that you won't last long anyway 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 26 Aug 2019 10:43 pm
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| Clyde Mattocks wrote: |
| 2. The instruction material is more plentiful. |
No it isn't. It's the same for both.
Please show me an example of some instructional material or tab that is suitable for Emmons setup only. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 4:38 am Emmons or Day set-up
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| Go Emmons. If you try to re-sell a Day set-up up, lots of luck. Also just about all tab and instructional material is in the Emmons format. You can get used to it with a Day set-up, but to me, it's confusing. I would guess 90% of the players use Emmons. My advice, FWIW, is stick with the mainstream. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 4:54 am
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Hasn't there been a 'Day vs. Emmons' survey? I seem to recall that Emmons was the clear 'winner' but that it wasn't as high as 90%.
I've sold/traded several 'Day' guitars. I won't even attempt to switch the pedals, even for a prospective buyer, and perhaps it's been an issue. Hard to say - they all went to new homes in the end.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Paul Pearson
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 5:19 am Emmons day
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| All of the gguitars that I have owned was Emmons set up unless I specifically ordered a new one I've learned how to change them over my ankle dose not move right for Emmons set up I'm day all the way |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 5:23 am
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I see we love to argue semantics here.
To assume that there is NO difference for a brand new player to decipher Day vs Emmons in Instructional material, we must assume that each new player knows exactly what the A Pedal does and what the C Pedal does at inception. And how the two E levers relate to both Emmons or Day setups. We also know this is not the case for every person. I dare say that we have a few who have been playing for a bit who still are not 100% sure of what each PULL does. We are all not equal. We are not supposed to be either.
I write TAB, I write it with the A pedal to the outside which is EMMONS. I also teach new students. Brand new students in many cases do not know, at this point, what each pedal or K lever pull does. How would they know ? Why would they know ? they are brand new. This is a brand new world.
And yes, DAY players have purchased my tab programs and a few, before they do they ask, "will it apply to DAY players" ? the answer is YES of course but also requires a short teaching moment. A=C and C=A. As well as the E lever discussion. Whether we want to believe it or agree, some brand new players don't even know what we are talking about, and that's why they are asking.
So while we argue semantics here, maybe its more productive to offer some wisdom and experience to brand new players , the worst that can happen is they get a full understanding of what the physical differences are between Emmons and Day while understanding that the music is exactly the same.
And just to add some additional mystery here, a year or two back I purchased an 8+5 Push Pull, it was a DAY setup and also had the Franklin Pedal on ped 4. It also had the 2nd string raise. I read many comments here that this setup could not be achieved on a Push Pull. Of course I was playing the guitar with that setup, that couldn't be accomplished , and didn't pay attention to the comments. I liked the Day setup enough but decided I didn't need 3 Steels , two setup as Emmons and one setup as Day. I brought that Steel to Emmons setup and eventually sold it to seek another adventure.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 6:13 am Re: Emmons or Day set-up
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| George Kimery wrote: |
| Also just about all tab and instructional material is in the Emmons format |
No it isn't.
Please could you point me to a single bit of this "Emmons only" tab that so many people are referring to. I am genuinely interested to see it |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 6:16 am
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I think the semantic confusion comes from describing pedals by position rather than function. When I see 8A in a tab I go to the 8th fret and press the pedal that raises the B's. I know which one it is, and I don't expect the author to.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 6:20 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
I see we love to argue semantics here.
To assume that there is NO difference for a brand new player to decipher Day vs Emmons in Instructional material, we must assume that each new player knows exactly what the A Pedal does and what the C Pedal does at inception.
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Of course they need to know this. Equally if they are playing Day or Emmons so that isn't a factor in choosing which to use. They also need to know where the B pedal is and what it does - it just happens to be in the same place on both. The knee lever functions are definitely not standard so you need to know what they do and what the author of the tab calls them (D, E, F etc.) An Emmons player who does not know exactly what the A and C pedals do and where to find them is in exactly the same position as A Day player that doesn't know. If someone can't work that out pretty quickly then this instrument probably isn't for them.
Once again I ask, please would you post a sample of tab that works for Emmons but not Day? |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 6:52 am
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| Jeff Mead wrote: |
Once again I ask, please would you post a sample of tab that works for Emmons but not Day? |
Jeff, nobody is challenging whether tab works for one or the other, nobody would argue, nobody is arguing, its a mute point. The question, if at all, is to be certain a brand new player understands the difference in the Steel setup to match the TAB, its an awareness thing not a TAB thing. Sometimes it takes a new player a bit of time to decipher Tab even when it matches the instrument exactly.
Nobody is going to offer a piece of tab that works for one and not the other thats not the concern. The player needs to understand their specific guitar or NO tab will be understood.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 10:33 am
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I knew I would get challenged and I respect that. Ian says the teaching material availability is the same and yet makes my point in saying the videos of the feet will be different.
For a rank beginner, that is a big deal when you're trying to keep up. I make no distinction in the functionality of on set up or the other in playing, tho some (Johnny Cox) do. My issues were a couple of things you will run into in sitting in on another guitar or in selling your guitar. Everyone's opinions are valid.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 11:57 am
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| Clyde Mattocks wrote: |
| Ian says the teaching material availability is the same and yet makes my point in saying the videos of the feet will be different |
Actually, he makes the point that the feet in videos isn't important. Surely something that all Emmons players who used Jeff Newman's videos would agree with. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 12:05 pm Emmons or Day set-up
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| Jeff, I think it is a question of terminology. All the course material have I ever had is marked A, B, C pedals and an Emmons set-up is pedals A, B, C left to right. So it is easy for me to know which pedal is being referred to in tablature. If I had a Day set-up up, I would have to think about the pedals being in a C, B, A order. I don't guess this would be a problem once you get used to if, but for me, the first pedal being A, the 2nd being B, and the third being C just keeps my brain straight after playing for over 50 years. The alphabet is A,B,C order, not C,B,A. Either way will work. |
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