Pedal steel sustain and playing the blues

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I have been playing regularly with superb blues players for several years. All of these players have fantastic sustain on their instruments and are masters at using it.

The harp players get their sustain by control of their breath. The guitarists get it by control of the combination of the natural sustain of their guitars overdriving a tube amp. The keyboards with their organ sound get infinite sustain. And the horn players (sax, trumpet) with breath control, same as the harp.

The paradox of this is that on pedal steel, an instrument whose strength is supposed to be it's natural sustain, I am left in the dust on this compared to all of these other instruments.

Even though effects pedals/stomp boxes are an option, I believe they inherently change too much of the character of the steel.

Of course one's ability in terms of other elements of playing (harmony, phrasing, etc.) goes a long way. But these players, to a tee, constantly and very effectively utilize the massive sustain they are capable of getting out of their instruments.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Thanks, Jeff.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think you can play wonderful "Blues" without a lot of sustain. (I also think you can play wonderful country without a lot of sustain.)

Kyle Everson · From: Nashville, Tennessee

The few times I've played blues live, I used the overdrive of the amp to my advantage. Also, very heavy vibrato with the bar helps on single notes at the end of phrases. BTW, are you playing mostly on E9 or C6 (or both)?

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Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

I'd find a lap steel (open E) and small amp more useful in a blues setting than a PSG. Depending on the volume of the rest of the band, anything from a Pro/Blues Jr to a '59 Bassman RI ought to do the trick. Something tweed or marshall based. After all, a steel guitar of any persuasion is still a guitar!

However, if you want a clean-to-distorted sound and high volume, your best option would be a high-power tube amp (like a Twin) and a good overdrive box. I'd recommend a Digitech Bad Monkey for the budget concious.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Jeff, you are right when you say effects like distortion and compression DO change the basic character of the steel, But IMHO this is not a necessarily bad thing, depending on the character of the music.

The way I see it, these effects are like different colors. Sometimes they can add a different feel to the song, and enhance it. Of course sometimes they can ruin it too. it's a matter of using them tastefully and appropriately in the context of the music.

During my gigging years, I used compression, fuzz, phasing, chorus and echo. Sometimes in combination. By doing so, I was able to provide a variety of different textures and colors to the songs.

One thing about distortion and compression, they do change the way you play. You can't turn on a fuzz unit and play the way you would without one. You have to taylor your playing to fit the distortion.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Gary Lee Gimble · From: Fredericksburg, VA.

Jeff, after several years of playing the blues, maybe you have some sound bites to share?
gary

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Jeff, you might try a Klon Centaur. It's basically an overdrive or clean boost, depending on how you set it - but I dont use the OD much, just the boost, which has very little tone coloration and does a tremendous job of increasing sustain without compression; plus you generally just sound like you have MUCH more of the tone you already hav. Once you find the sweet spot, it just makes your guitar or steel sound huge, with great sustain.

Caveat - as with all overdrive/boosters, the Klon really only works its magic with an amp that's aready being driven hard - and that sweet sustain really requires a tube amp cranked up so it will "bloom". That's not to say you can't use one with good headroom if you are going for "clean" tones - but an amp turned up to "2" won't sustain no matter what you do with it, other than ticking a compressor/sustainer in front and the tone-sucking that goes along with it.

If you've been running an amp at mid to low volume, the first thing to try would be a smaller amp, cranked up. THEN try the Klon.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

There have been several guitarists like Wes Montgomery and Barney Kessel who were thought to be good blues players, though they played tubby, sustain-less jazz boxes; there were a few "acoustic" piano players like Art Tatum, Thelonius Monk and Oscar Peterson who managed to muddle through. I tend to agree with Mike myself, I like the way effects boxes sound for certain things.

I usually use a compressor into a Tube Screamer or a Tube Works "Real Tube" unit, or hoodwink my Genesis 3 into something similar. You have to dick with the knobs a whole lot, especially when feeding one stage of gain into another; a rotation of 3 or 5 degrees on a gain or tone knob can make a lot of difference. It also helps to listen to a lot of overdriven, screaming guitar sounds, I had a lucky upbringing that way.

http://www.amptone.com/g021.htm

quote:
Boss's little stompbox booklet gives away one of my main tone techniques: Eq then Distortion then Eq, on page 41. Note that I disagree about optimal FX placement; I recommend:

wah
compressor
eq
phaser
overdrive
distortion
eq
saturated power tubes and speaker, and eq
harmonizer
chorus/flanging
delay
reverb

Personally, I don't prefer the sound of overdrive through reverb, or (gaak) reverb through overdrive; I have separate clean, dirty and reverb/chorus/etc. channels each with their own EQ and compression. Obsessiveness has it's rewards....

THE $500 HEADPHONE & PRE-AMP:

[This message was edited by David Mason on 10 September 2006 at 12:58 PM.]

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Robert Cray would be an example of a non sustaining blues style. JP

Tommy Young · From: Ethelsville Alabama

have u thot of trying an e-bow it gives endless sound to your strings, mullen guitar has them on their website and del used one on one of his cd's thanks tommy young

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

IF you are playing with guys who are using gadget and/or amp distortion then your perception is that they are getting a better sound and sustain than you are then you will either have to join them or live with what you have. If you can't compete then just get you a good stomp box or a Marshall amp and that will get you in the game with them.

Changing the sound of the pedal steel to be more contemporary or blues/rock based can be a good thing. You can always finish up your turn by clicking the gadget off and you are back to a nice sound and sustain.

Think of it as just giving your steel another voice.

David Doggett · Posted 10 Sep 2006 8:49 pm

I'm very puzzled by this post. Steel guitar can't compete with an organ or horn for sustain; but lap or pedal steel has much more sustain than any guitar. Compare any steel to any guitar through a clean playing amp with no effects units. The steel will have more sustain. Also, when you add the sustain you get with the volume pedal, you far surpass regular guitar, and get close to what horns can get. Are you using your volume pedal the way most steelers do? You should be attacking notes with the pedal only about 1/3 on. The remaining 2/3 of the pedal throw is your sustain. You increase the volume pedal as the string's natural sustain dies off, so the volume stays constant. I play pedal steel in a blues band. I have never felt I lacked sustain. In fact, I use the volume pedal less for sustain playing blues than I do for a slow country ballad.

However, if you want to get lead guitar type sustain without the volume pedal, you can get it the exact same way they do. Use tube overdrive and lots of compression. If you put all that with the volume pedal, you have almost infinite sustain on steel.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I appreciate your responses, all of them. Just to capture a few points.

The great jazz/blues guitarists and pianists don't use huge sustain, and there is much more reliability on harmony i.e. note selection.

But if you're going to compete with respect to sustain, then it appears that a steel player needs some sort of stomp box effect, and then of course it needs to be mastered.

The other option is just play differently, but the problem is that the heavy-duty sustain that all of these instrumentalists have is so extremely effective.

BTW, on two different occasions, including in a blues band the I sat in with, I was asked NOT to use distortion, for the exact reason that it changes the character of the steel and if someone is a steel fan in a purist sense, they do not want to hear that.

So going the effects route can be a slippery slope. It is perfectly understood that an effects-laden guitar tone is part of a guitar-players repertoire of sounds. It is NOT accepted by everyone that a steel-players repertoire should include effects (other than reverb).

BTW, I have used a fuzz tone in the past and it worked well in a few songs for various bands I used it in. But I positively hate to rely on a fuzz tone in order to sell my playing in ANY context, ever. Even now, it is very tempting to play the fuzz when I am in a group with an amplified growling harp and organ ripping up some blues solos relying hugely on the infinite sustain capability which is sooooooo effective.

Then when my turn comes, I play one or two sequential verses/choruses on C6, and try to decide if I can sell the next seqential ride without going to the fuzz. It's a battle but I've gotten to the point that I just don't want to use it.

Instead I try to build the tension of the several solos strictly through the right selection of notes, phrases, and chords but I tell you, there is nothing like a HUGE sustain to create that tension.

I continue to welcome all comments on this. .. Jeff

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 11 September 2006 at 12:58 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Oh, and Gary G., I wish I had some clips. The only studio clips I have are the jazz clips on my site and stuff I played on other people's CD's, none of which is blues. And the only live recording (DVD) I have is a set I played at a theater with an alt-country band I've been with for a while now, but it's bascially country with a couple of C6 swing numbers. Lots of solos, but no hard blues. I've been intending for a while now to try to do some simple recordings at some gigs or jams, but haven't gotten around to it. Thanks for asking. .. Jeff

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 11 September 2006 at 12:52 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I think most people understand that when you play chords or intervals containing thirds, sixths and so forth through a jacked-up tube amp or distortion box, the upper harmonics of the notes can clash pretty horribly, a good reason for heavy metal guitarists to stick to root/fifth power chords.

I think this problem is more pronounced playing steel; I suspect it's because the string vibrations are transmitted, and interacting, along the bar more than they are along or through the frets and neck of a six-string. A guitarist can somewhat alleviate this by palm-muting, and greatly alleviate it by arpeggiating every chord - something like "Cliffs of Dover", where Eric Johnson is playing the notes almost staccato-style, one at a time, through left-hand rather than right-hand technique. I haven't been able to get this to work too well on steel, there's so much else to keep track of that the partial-muting thing is difficult to keep consistent. Pick-blocking sure does get clicky through a fuzztone though! I'm sure it can be done with a lot of practice, but I get all cramped up.

What does seem to work pretty well is to blend clean signal and overdriven signal together. Most (all?) overdrive systems add a good degree of compression, so when you get a good balance between the two, you can play a chord and the clean signal is louder, then as it dies out the distortion builds up; when you play single notes, the overdriven portion rings out louder to begin with. Cool rich rock stars have almost all gone to multiple, simultaneous amp setups (Santana's using FOUR!), I do it with a split signal then a little mixer to recombine the signals, or you can get a box like the Voodoo Lab Sparkle Drive, which is gussied-up Tube Screamer circuitry with a blend knob to add a clean, boosted signal back in.

I also using think a lighter, non-metal bar is a great boon in controlling overdriven sounds, maybe because of that bar-vibration-transmission thing; again though, there you're getting further and further away from a traditional, sweet steel tone. Personally I kind of like playing "Iron Man" on a steel guitar, but I don't think it'd go over too well auditioning for a Buckaroo tribute band....

Y adapter

[This message was edited by David Mason on 11 September 2006 at 12:17 AM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Jeff, instead of distortion, you could try a compressor. I use an MXR Dyna comp. It also changes the character of the steel somewhat, but not nearly as radically as a fuzz box, and it increases the sustain considrably without distorting the signal.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I'm going to also consider some of the suggestions here about ways to increase the sustain with minimally compromising the character of the sound. Thanks again.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

A compressor with a slooow release setting might be the best way to keep it clean -- much like using your volume pedal, which you have doubtless already maxed out. I used to use a Gibson/Maestro "Sustainer" stomp box on rock/blues gigs, which was really designed for exactly this purpose. You wouldn't want to record with it, it pumped so obviously, but in a live setting it really brought up the steel (it also worked well on an acoustic guitar with a pickup).

David Doggett · Posted 11 Sep 2006 6:25 am

I agree with those above that there are two ways to get pure undistorted sustain. The first is a volume pedal, and the other is a compressor. Jeff, you didn't mention why your volume pedal is not giving you enough sustain. The main point of the volume pedal for steel is to give that classic undistorted liquid sustain. If your volume pedal is bumping and you are running out of sustain, then your amp is underpowered. In my blues group the guitar can use a tube amp from 15-40 watts, and have plenty of volume. But I use a 100 watt Dual Showman Reverb. I don't use it to play louder than the guitar, rather I use the extra power for extra sustain with my volume pedal. With a couple of really loud alt-country/rockabilly groups, The Dual is not enough. My volume pedal bumps and I run out of sustain. So I got a 180 watt Super Twin Reverb, and that solved the problem. I'm sure a NV1000 with 300 solid-state watts would also be sufficient. Again, I don't play louder with this huge amp, rather it gives me longer sustain before my volume pedal bumps.

When I first got my PODXT, I tried the compressor with pedal steel. It did a remarkable job of softening the attack and giving long sustain, just like I do manually with the volume pedal. I quickly decided that if I habitually used compression, I would not learn volume pedal control the way I should. So I decided not to rely on compression, at least for awhile. When I feel I am no longer improving with my volume pedal technique, maybe I'll try compression again.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

Electronics such as a compressor are worth a try, I have used a opto compressor at times in my rig, an opto based compressor works really well with steel IMO.

Ones to try are the Diamond Compressor or the Demeter COMP-1 Compulator
http://www.diamondpedals.com/products/compressor.html http://www.demeteramps.com/

These are way different sounding than a dynacomp.

Another thing to consider is the harmonic structure of the steel itself, eg the very bright attack of most/all steels compared to the instruments you are comparing to. The volume and tone settings you will set the amp at will make the peak blend well with the other instruments but the peak decays quickly.

If you could magically make your steel have a less bright attack or a more even harmonic structure as the sound level decays it would have more apparent sustain, even if the time it took for the string to stop vibrating remained the same.

Changing pickups would not accomplish what I am talking about for the most part, you would readjust the EQ to make the peak sound right and be back at the same place.

Constructing the steel of a different wood could accomplish this possibly, think about comparing a all mahogany Gibson solid body 6 string to an all maple 6 string (Carvin made some of these). Or I am sure there are other construction details that could help this.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm thinkin' a Hilton Digital Sustain Unit would solve this problem, no? http://www.hiltonelectronics.net/hilton1.html

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11 September 2006 at 09:00 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I generally switch to a bar that has less sustain when I play blues. I also often take my foot off the volume pedal. To my ears, the natural decay envelope of the string usually sounds very authentic in blues tunes.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Pete, that Digital Sustain unit looks interesting. I wrote Keith about and am interested in what he has to say. I would think that he of all people would understand how important it is to keep the fundamental character of the steel in tact.

David, thanks for your response. I need much more than some volume pedal sustain to compete with the kind of players I am talking about. Thanks though for your insights. Much appreciated.

Bobby, I know what you're saying, but EVERYONE I am talking about relies heavily on the ability to elict over-the-top sustain from their instrument, harp, horn, keys, and guitar. This is not to say that there aren't other styles that wouldn't rely on it, just that every super player I come across has that in their tool kit, and as I said before, it is extremely effective in getting their points across.

Thanks again everyone for all your posts.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I wrote a response earlier today, and I held back posting it because, like David D., I don't think the historical real deal blues guitarists used a lot of sustain. As a blues guitar player, I have pretty much accepted that if I want it to sound like traditional blues guitar, then the harp, B-3, and sax have their bag of sustain tricks - the matchbook between the keys, and so on - and I don't. Frankly, whenever I have tried to deviate from that sound in a traditional blues band, I get a bag full of you know what about it.

So, I assume you must be talking about something besides a very traditional-sounding blues unit. People have talked about tube amps, cranking it till it blooms, overdrive and distortion pedals, compressors and other types of sustain units, and volume pedals as ways to increase sustain. Most guitarists use some or all of these, as do I. But when it gets down to it - in the open-loop, i.e., no acoustic feedback - the only real approach to stop the note envelope from decaying is some type of compression - compression is just the idea that open-loop gain is a nonlinear function of the input signal that causes the product of the gain times the input signal amplitude to stay constant or decay much more slowly.

IMO, each of these open-loop methods achieve their sustain through some type of compression response. This compression might be "natural", like the soft saturation of a tube amp or harsh distortion of a Rat pedal - or deliberate gain control, like a clean compressor circuit which dynamically adjusts the gain as a function of input signal envelope, or the manual adjusting of gain using the volume pedal. To approach the problem this way, the issue is not whether or not you want compression - it's the character of that compression that is at issue. A clean compressor plus a tube amp not driven deeply into distortion sounds like the best compromise for what you are asking for here, but even the best compressors, when run into extreme sustain, wind up sounding like they're "pumping" at a certain point - at least every one I've tried, including the venerable Joe Meeks compressor. I don't know any way to get really long sustain that really sounds natural, to me, without acoustic feedback.

So, that's my thought - to get that sustained sound I sometimes like without a lot of distortion, I need acoustic feedback. It means my amp needs to be loud enough and close enough to my guitar or steel that I get a roughly unity-gain positive feedback loop going. Of course, Jimi was one of the pioneers in the tasteful (and sometimes not so tasteful) use of acoustic feedback. IMO, it is much easier to control this with a guitar - you have much more control of the amp-body-pickup geometry. I love archtops for this, but if I have the right amp, pickup, and geometry, it works fine for a Strat, Tele, or Les Paul. I have also used this on steel - especially when playing blues - but since the steel is planted, one must rely on the volume pedal to control the feedback loop gain. It also pretty much ices the idea of doing this at a quiet gig, since most steel body-pickup pairs I've tried don't feed back very easily unless the volume at the pickup is pretty bloody loud. The 16.8 KOhm Truetone on my U-12 Zum is an exception, and the character of feedback tone is very nice. A bit of compression from a good compressor helps also - in my opinion, not enough to hear the unit working, but just enough to steady the open-loop gain a bit. Really, a compressor is a feedback control system that, roughly, attempts to stabilize the output signal envelope at a roughly constant level.

My normal gig rig is a Pod 2.0 into either a Nashville 112 or Ampeg BA-112 bass amp. I tweak the Twin Reverb emulation (Blackface 2) for clean steel, and use the Deluxe Reverb emulation (Blackface 1) for guitar or blues steel, and neither are run seriously distorted. I don't find this works as well using the solid-state amps directly, because they react too quickly to control the feedback. I think that's a big part of why guitar players prefer tube amps or at least emulation - they react more slowly and are easier to control the interaction with.

The nice thing about acoustic feedback is that it sounds pretty natural, unlike a very precise and rapid compressor - most of these work so quickly that I can hear anything but the most subtle effect working. If one gets the feedback acoustics set right, one can modulate the feedback gain above and below 1, so that one can get a dynamic transient response. Below 1, the signal gradually decays, right at 1, it just regenerates, and as it's brought further and further above 1, it reacts more and more quickly. It also works off the interaction between the amp's sound wave volume and body/pickup, not harmonic distortion, so it's possible to get clean-sounding feedback.

Sorry, I don't have any clips to demo this. I think this requires a fair amount of experimentation - one must pay attention to stage setup, and it's sometimes difficult to scale the amp volume to get this right. That's one of the reasons I like the Pod - it scales well in the sense that the basic tone is set in the Pod itself, and the effect of the clean amp is primarily to set the overall loudness. Tube amps generally have a restricted range of sweet spots that depend explicitly and nonlinearly on the volume.

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