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Topic: Broke a pull bar on my Carter |
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Mar 2023 3:02 pm |
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Had to do major surgery today on my 1999 D10. My right knee right
 raises string 1 to G#, 2 to E, lowers 6 to F#, and raises string 3 on C6 to C#. I have been having problems with the lever for a little while. None of the changes would stay in tune. Caused me to overtune. Tried new nylon tuning nuts thinking they were stripped (but on all 4 changes at the same time - not likely). Checked other points in the pull train. Everything is good.
So, today I noticed this broken pull bar (bell crank). This is the one on the cross shaft that has all the pulls on it. This is half of the reversing mechanism that has the rod from the knee lever to the cross shaft. All the pull bars with changer pull rods have the open parts of the holes facing the tuning key end of the guitar. But these pull bars have those openings facing the changer end. There shouldn't really be a tension point on the pull bar that would cause it to break. The reversing mechanism has a positive stop to keep from going too far. The pressure stops at that point. So, I had a spare pull bar and replaced it but had the hole openings facing the changer end of the guitar. So far, so good.
In the second pic, the pull bar changed is on the shaft to the right and the second pull bar from the bottom on the cross shaft..
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2023 3:56 pm
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Richard, looks to me that the bell crank might be bending. The puller to the right of it looks a little sturdier to me. Both sides of the holes are solid columns. FWIW, I wouldn't trust it for long. Also, I just noticed. The puller on the far end of that cross shaft has a lot heftier/wider single column of metal. Good luck. RP
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Rick McNamara
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2023 4:43 pm Broke a bell crank on my Carter
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Looks like another bell crank (inside red circle-picture attached) may be getting ready to let go?
RM
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Mar 2023 4:47 pm
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| Ron Pruter wrote: |
| Richard, looks to me that the bell crank might be bending. The puller to the right of it looks a little sturdier to me. Both sides of the holes are solid columns. FWIW, I wouldn't trust it for long. Also, I just noticed. The puller on the far end of that cross shaft has a lot heftier/wider single column of metal. Good luck. RP |
If you are talking about the bend at the very top of the pull bar, sometimes the holes are too tight to fit the barrel or pull pin. Bud Carter told me to take a scewdriver and slightly bend the opening to the hole. Have some like that and they have survived decades. At some point, Carter changed the design of the pull bar. The far one is the newer design. More material at the solid part, but less on the other side that holds the pull pin in. I had a pull pin pull out of a newer pull bar once. The older design is the better of the two in my opinion.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Mar 2023 5:22 pm Re: Broke a bell crank on my Carter
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| Rick McNamara wrote: |
Looks like another bell crank (inside red circle-picture attached) may be getting ready to let go?
RM
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That's the one I just put in. The hole had to be "opened" up a little to fit the barrel in. That is a fix that Bud Carter to me to do many years ago. Some extrusions for bell cranks had those issues. Believe me, there are others like that under there from the factory. There is not enough stress at that point to break it if the lever is hitting it's stop, which it is.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 5 Mar 2023 8:59 pm
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I see the same thing that Ron pointed out, that jumper crank appears to have a significant bend in it starting at the same point as the broken one in your first pic. It does look like it's on its way to imminent failure also.
That crank is most definitely under more tension than a normal crank when engaged, the lever stop has no effect on this. A normal crank is only dealing with the tension of one pull (one string or return spring). The crank in your pic has to deal with the combined tension of four pulls every time it's engaged. I agree with Ron's suggestion, you might be well served to swap that crank out for the next one over on the C6 neck, it doesn't have those open sided Pac-Man type holes that are creating the weak spot.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 6 Mar 2023 4:29 am
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Ian... that bell crank is on the RKL lever. I think you are right about it possibly starting to bend. I have another spare bellcrank that I will use for the C6 change and move that C6 bellcrank in place of bending one. Actually, I might use it in place of the broken one as that lever has more pulls on it. It's puzzling, that C6 bellcrank with no slots on the holes is the only one in the whole guitar. Something tells me that was actually designed for that intermediate rod on the knee levers, even though it was used as a standard bellcrank. I don't see those in Al Brisco's catalog of Carter parts. I'll send him an email and ask him about them.
I've inspected all the other bellcranks and they are OK.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 6 Mar 2023 6:58 am
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Of course this is not the least bit helpful. Just seemed like a nice place to slip this photo in. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 6 Mar 2023 7:19 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
Of course this is not the least bit helpful. Just seemed like a nice place to slip this photo in. |
OUCH!!!!!
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 6 Mar 2023 7:31 am
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In Jon's photo, you can see both the newer and older styles. The middle one is the newer one with more material along the back edge, and doesn't have the "T" shapes at the holes. I had a a zero pedal I added later with the new style bellcranks. I had the open side of the holes facing the changer end (can't remember why, but John Fabian told me to face them that way), and when I pressed the pedal, the dog bone (pull pin) pulled right out of the bellcrank. Turned them around and was good to go.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Mar 2023 3:23 pm
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Not totally surprising wear a TEAR. Aluminum has the nasty spec of being able to hold for a while a certain overload and suddenly "tier" and break.
I guess it's now almost 20 years since the last Carter left Mesquite, TX... and many are over a Decade older.
Would like to hope that Al Brisco in Canada would have bags full of those from buying up Carter after John's untimely departure:
https://www.steelguitarcanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/2022-Nov-Carter-Parts-Catalog.pdf
Page 17!
... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2023 2:38 am
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| I wonder whether someone could start making replacement pulls out of sturdier material for aftermarket sale. Yes, I'm looking at you, Michael Yahl. (Or are there still proprietary rights or some such thing on Carter parts?) |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 9 Mar 2023 4:23 am
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| Dan Beller-McKenna wrote: |
| I wonder whether someone could start making replacement pulls out of sturdier material for aftermarket sale. Yes, I'm looking at you, Michael Yahl. (Or are there still proprietary rights or some such thing on Carter parts?) |
Years ago, I contacted Michael about making Carter parts, but he said parts were still available from Al Brisco, so he wouldn't make them. It might be great if parts could be made from solid aluminum instead of these extrusions, but would have been more expensive. One of the issues with those extrusions (per Bud Carter) was that some of the holes for dog bones and brass barrels were too tight and needed to be opened up a tiny bit. He said to use a straight blade screwdriver and lightly expand the opening. I wouldn't mind having some bellcranks like the one that has no slots at the holes. It seems that would be much stronger.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Al Brisco
From:
Colborne, ON Canada
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Posted 10 Mar 2023 8:07 am Carter Pull Bars (Rod Pullers)
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Hi Richard.
As discussed the newer Pull Bars are stronger than older ones. I don't think I have ever known of them fatiguing.
I used to have some special Carter Pull Bars that were a solid piece up to the 3rd Pull Pin position, which gave them extra strength for Knee Lever Brackets.
Hoping you can find a fix to your problem.
Best Regards,
Al Brisco
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Al Brisco
http://www.steelguitarcanada.com
Serving Steelers with Experience, Expertise, & Selection Since 1979 |
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John Hyland
From:
South Australia
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Posted 10 Mar 2023 1:52 pm
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To my eye the newer style looks significantly stronger with the vulnerable throat over twice the thickness and looks higher up the bar. The captive top at the crossrod of the revised part is broken off. I wonder if this was overtightening or load from the pull.
As an aside. I wonder how many people actually use the lowest rod notch.
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 10 Mar 2023 4:29 pm
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| John Hyland wrote: |
To my eye the newer style looks significantly stronger with the vulnerable throat over twice the thickness and looks higher up the bar. The captive top at the crossrod of the revised part is broken off. I wonder if this was overtightening or load from the pull.
As an aside. I wonder how many people actually use the lowest rod notch.
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Several pulls on my guitar use that first hole.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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