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Topic: Amp of the future |
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 4:22 am |
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I've been pondering what I really want in a guitar/steel guitar amplifier and have come to the following conclusions.
1. The preamp with controls etc will be a separately packaged unit. It can be quite small for convenient placement/mounting.
2. The separate speaker enclosure will be powered with a contained lightweight class D amp of significant wattage. One can choose between which brand/size speaker to equip. Perhaps the cabinet is more wedge shaped to aim it at you when on the floor.
To me this opens the versatility door wide open.
The preamp would be voiced for your instrument. A bass player, a guitar player, and a steel guitar player all have different requirements for example. The preamp could be as simple or as full featured as you want, tube or solid state, with/without compression/distortion/reverberation effects, etc.
My ideal in a preamp for example would contain the Session 400 discrete SS front end, ie with qausi parametric tone control/spring reverb/tremelo. I'd add an effects loop with defeat foot switch. A headphone amp/jack would be handy. An I-phone could be plugged into the loop with a mix control so you can play along with prerecorded music.
My speaker would contain a 15" black widow. Like the current wave of powered speakers for PA, the amp would contain a fixed filter that gets rid of any unwanted cabinet resonances dips, rises in the frequency response, although I know of none regarding the BW in its' current cabinet.
So what does this have over the combo or rack system?
1. Weight. It can be carried in in two halves. Class D is very light weight for the wattage.
2. Flexibility of tone ie, albeit you choose your speaker for basic tone.
3. Minimalism, ie no redundant amp sections to cloud up the signal like most rack systems into a separate combo amp.
4. Place your preamp at arms reach, place your speaker at its' optimum distance for dispersion/focus. No need to get in and out of your chair for adjustments.
5. Practice at home with headphones keeping the family happy yet getting your familiar tone. No need to break out the speaker.
6. Cost. Preamps can be quite cheap without the heavy iron requirement and so can Class D power.
7. Effects flexibility. Put your favorite pedal/rack on the floor or into the EF loop.
I dunno maybe this is obvious (and available already) but tell me what you think of this concept. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 4:30 am
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amp of the future, but it has to weigh under 30 pounds and have reverb on both channels. I think this has been the amp of the future for the last 50 years , or 5 decades !
They are still trying to figure it out and get it right !
Good concept though ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 4:41 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| I think this has been the amp of the future for the last 50 years , or 5 decades! |
If not that one, perhaps this one:
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Josh Braun
From:
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 5:48 am
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FWIW, you described my old Evans SE200 pretty well. Technically, I'm fairly certain the preamp isn't meant to be disconnected from the unit. But... it's pretty easy to separate, and the power amp is at the bottom of the cab.
To make it as convenient to separate as you described would probably take a little work - my combo isn't truly designed to move the preamp in and out on whim. |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 6:16 am
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| You may have just described 'The Amp' by Milkman to some extent. Compact size (8"x6"x2.5"),weight approximately 3 lbs, functions as either a tube preamp only or a stand alone, 100 watt powered unit. Have used mine running directly to the mixing board, driving both 12" and 15" cabinets, and as a preamp unit coupled with a higher powered speaker cabinet. Very satisfactory results in all three applications. |
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Michael Butler
From:
California, USA
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 7:48 am
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I think Fender has done a good job of hitting the amp of the future pretty spot on with the Twin Reverb Tone Master. It does have the tone, it has the headroom, the ability to keep the classic tone in any size room or stage. And carrying a Zum Encore in one hand (35 lbs)
and the new Twin in the other (33lbs), one trip, is pretty easy on the back. And it’s got “the lookâ€, which is of course vanity......or is it stage presence...😎
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Tony Edwards
From:
Six Mile, South Carolina
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 10:41 am Amp
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I think the Quilter Steelaire Rackmount Pro is basically what you have described, with the exception of the entire amp that pulls out of the cabinet. Pretty close though.
Only about 36 lbs. of good sound.
_________________
ZumSteel SD10; CLR Custom SD10; Telonics 500-B w/ TT 15; Hilton Low Profile VP; Frenchy's Steel Mill Strings; George L's Cables; BJS Tone Bars; Hoffmeyer Picks. This combination produces a Heavenly tone! Psalm 33:2 "Praise the Lord with...an instrument of ten strings." |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 11:16 am
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I'm with Tony on this one. My experience with most new disposable, surface-mounted-component, wave-soldered amps cranked out in automated factories over the last 20-30 years has been that when they are gathering mold in a landfill somewhere after they run out of warranty and are unrepairable - the repair policy of many amps these days is "replace under warranty, do not service" - my old Fenders and other hand-wired tube amps, and old Peaveys like the Session/LTD/NV 400 will still be cranking out music as they have done for the last 30-60 years.
I'll also say that the more "features" one of these modern amps has, the more likely it is to fail. The issue is packing lots of stuff into a small package. IMO, some modern amps like the Blues Junior or other similar and fairly basic modern-construction amps are reliable precisely because they are simple. To me as a (retired) engineer and software developer, this is sort of like the Unix vs. Windows or object-oriented system design vs. old-school procedural system design. In Unix/OO, simple individual components are put together as modules - each is clearly designed, tested, and serviceable. The other model shoves a bunch of stuff together in more complex ways, and is harder to test and service.
I realize that some Class D and other SS guitar amps like this are well constructed and servicable. But I think they are the exception and for the most part, there has been a cost-race to the bottom going on in guitar amps for a long time, nor do I see a general trend to the contrary. Still, I do acknowledge that some of the modern pedal steel amp makers have tried to break the downward spiral in guitar amp construction. I guess I'm coming from the old-school guitar amp mainstream, where my preference is for a relatively uncluttered signal path. I guess you sort of have to play something like a Ken Fischer Trainwreck amp to hear the difference. I wish I still had my old HiWatt DR-103 - loudest, cleanest amp I ever played, built to last forever.
I know the weight thing seems to be a big deal for a lot of people. I figure that when I'm too frail to drag a 40-60 pound amp to a gig, it's probably time for me to hang it up or find a roadie, at least for gigging pedal steel. That's the general weight range of a typical modern pedal steel (lots of old ones are heavier than that), so if I can't somehow figure out how to handle that amount of weight in an amp, I won't be able to handle the steel either. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2019 12:28 pm
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Dave, i respect your opinion and have always enjoyed your posts, BTW.
I'm an EE myself. I would agree with you about Class D if I hadn't heard some fantastic PA powered speaker systems lately, for example the powered QSC speakers blow me away. Either speaker technology has improved immensely or the fact that an amp's response can be tailored to the speaker in a single unit accounts for audible improvements.
Now instrument amplification may be another thing....but..I tried out the little Roland AC-33 the other day. It's a small amp intended for busking. A mic and instrument input pre-amp drive a class D power amp driving two 6" speakers. The amp is so efficient it can be powered with 8 AA cells for eight hours and provide 25 Watts. The sound quality was superb. It also incorporates another complexity, anti-feedback. However, i could play my miced dobro with the amp aimed directly at me and hurt my ears without feedback.
I must admit Class D takes beaucoup knowledge to trouble shoot though.
Many a class A/B analog solid state amp can be made bullet proof by adding a pair of transistors to the output that monitor current and shut down the output. It's More complex, yes, but the results are better reliability, so complexity doesn't necessarily equate to unreliable.
I'd also like to take the opportunity to debunk the "point to point is easier to service" myth. I have a blackface Fender bassman that I love but it's certainly not easy tracing a signal using a schematic without reference designators. This era uses two fiber boards. One mounts the turrets and the other insulates the bottom of the turrets from the chassis. Often secret invisible wires are routed between and good luck separating the two fiber boards with out totally unsoldering all the connections on adjacent tube sockets.
It's all fixable. It's just that modern surface mount has got so cheap to produce it doesn't make economic sense for these companies to service them. It does make sense for them to simply replace a board at cost but the greedy bastards got dollar signs in their eyes.
I've designed some audio stuff both thru hole and surface mount. When it comes to making a board with greater than say 15v, I won't use extremely small SM packages. I find a 1205 package quite easy to replace I've accidentally inhaled a 402 package resistor (not much bigger than a grain of pepper) in fact.
I think the magic tone happens up front. That's where the emphasis on clean/tone/character should take place and be cultivated. Powered speakers can now faithfully reproduce what is input to them. |
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Gabriel Edell
From:
Hamilton, Ontario
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Posted 1 Nov 2019 7:51 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I'm with Tony on this one. My experience with most new disposable, surface-mounted-component, wave-soldered amps cranked out in automated factories over the last 20-30 years has been that when they are gathering mold in a landfill somewhere after they run out of warranty and are unrepairable - the repair policy of many amps these days is "replace under warranty, do not service" - my old Fenders and other hand-wired tube amps, and old Peaveys like the Session/LTD/NV 400 will still be cranking out music as they have done for the last 30-60 years.
I'll also say that the more "features" one of these modern amps has, the more likely it is to fail. The issue is packing lots of stuff into a small package. IMO, some modern amps like the Blues Junior or other similar and fairly basic modern-construction amps are reliable precisely because they are simple. To me as a (retired) engineer and software developer, this is sort of like the Unix vs. Windows or object-oriented system design vs. old-school procedural system design. In Unix/OO, simple individual components are put together as modules - each is clearly designed, tested, and serviceable. The other model shoves a bunch of stuff together in more complex ways, and is harder to test and service.
I realize that some Class D and other SS guitar amps like this are well constructed and servicable. But I think they are the exception and for the most part, there has been a cost-race to the bottom going on in guitar amps for a long time, nor do I see a general trend to the contrary. Still, I do acknowledge that some of the modern pedal steel amp makers have tried to break the downward spiral in guitar amp construction. I guess I'm coming from the old-school guitar amp mainstream, where my preference is for a relatively uncluttered signal path. I guess you sort of have to play something like a Ken Fischer Trainwreck amp to hear the difference. I wish I still had my old HiWatt DR-103 - loudest, cleanest amp I ever played, built to last forever.
I know the weight thing seems to be a big deal for a lot of people. I figure that when I'm too frail to drag a 40-60 pound amp to a gig, it's probably time for me to hang it up or find a roadie, at least for gigging pedal steel. That's the general weight range of a typical modern pedal steel (lots of old ones are heavier than that), so if I can't somehow figure out how to handle that amount of weight in an amp, I won't be able to handle the steel either. |
Agree. Newer stuff certainly has its advantages, especially in regards to weight and flexibility. But most of it isn’t really built to last, let alone be serviced. As previously mentioned, repair usually involves swapping out whole circuit boards. What do you do when the model has been revised or discontinued by the manufacturer and they no longer have a supply of replacement parts?
My main guitar amp is a 62-year-old Fender. Of course it’s been repaired and serviced over the years but it works great and should keep working for decades. My Steel King is a good amp but I doubt it will last sixty years.
_________________
GFI S-10 P U, Moyo Volume, Fender Steel King, Fender 5F4 Super-Amp |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 1 Nov 2019 4:19 pm
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Everyone seems to think your "amp of the future" is their personal favorite. But let's look at what you describe - the pre-amp part, anyway: you are talking a Stereo Steel pre-amp (which GD still has some new ones for sale - don't delay!). My understanding is the tone stack is based on the PV Sessions 400. Put it in a double-slot Gator rack case with a TC Electronics M-One XL or whatever effects processor you prefer, and you've got your pre-amp/effects setup. Then it's just a matter of picking which power amps and speakers you want and building (or having built) cabs to hold them.
A couple of points against this idea, though - first, if you run powered speakers in lieu of a power amp by the pre-amp, you have to run AC power to each speaker as well as speaker cable - more stuff to trip over! Also, what sort of cables do you use to connect a pre-amp to a powered amp? Speaker cable or Instrument cable? Are there limits in distance due to resistance and signal degradation?
But, the reality is more and more steelers are going for small pre-amps or D/I boxes that plug right into the PA system. I think that might be more "futuristic" than just separating the pre-amp and power amp and moving the latter over to the speakers. If you want it more futuristic, maybe it should all be housed in one's iPhone, or a small component with modest screen that is purpose-built to load digital effects, along the lines of what David Mitchell recently posted about.
As for Class D - that is a somewhat separate topic. I have a Milkman "The Amp" which uses a Class D power amp. But I also know that GD Walker (Stereo Steel Builder) has some reservations about them that go beyond my understanding of electronic circuits to be able to follow - but involves the reserve power that a more traditional power amp has in reserve for that instantaneous wall of sound when you need it. Maybe he will chime in here.
Stereo Steel (in case you could not guess!) is my amp of choice when playing out. But I also have a Milkman "The Amp" that I like as well. I guess I am hedging my bets?
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2019 10:16 am
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I’ll second this, with one caveat. Unless the sound system I’m plugged into includes a high quality IEM, I prefer having my own powered speaker to monitor the sound being produced by the amp modeler. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 2 Nov 2019 3:47 pm
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Jim, if you are impressed by the QSCs then remember the Q stands for QUILTER. The Toneblock 202 doesn’t have the fancy EQ you describe, but it is versatile and easy to get a great sound. I tried mine with a Webb cabinet sporting JBL D130 and it was killer. I usually use a 12,though.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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