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Topic: beginner - struggling to get E string in tune |
Scott Boone
From:
Austin, TX
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 8:00 pm |
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I've got a keyless GFI ultra SD10, and I cannot seem to get the high E string to stay in tune. When i tune it (without levers) to pitch, the left knee levers (LL raises, LR drops) are out. When i use the nylon lever tuners on the end of the instrument to tune altered pitches, the open tuning goes out of whack. I've only had the thing a week and I didn't notice the problem in the first few days, so I'm worried I broke or mis-adjusted something at some point.
I'm not really sure if the problem is the way I'm tuning it or a mechanical issue. I assume it's the former since I'm quite new to the instrument. Any advice? Have searched around to not much avail.
Thanks,
Scott
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Austin, TX
Last edited by Scott Boone on 14 Oct 2019 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 8:15 pm
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Scott, most likely it’s a case of over-tuning the pedal or levers associated with the E string. Back off all of the nylon tuners for that string, and then retune the open E. If when retuning the C pedal and levers any of them don’t go far enough before the open note starts being affected, you’ll need to increase the travel on the pedal or lever to get to the desired pitch.
Make sense? If not, there’s a whole topic (as a sticky) right here:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=326460 |
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Scott Boone
From:
Austin, TX
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Posted 13 Oct 2019 9:19 pm
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Thanks all! Looks like that's the problem. Very helpful...learning the names for things is half the battle.
Scott
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Austin, TX |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Scott Boone
From:
Austin, TX
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Posted 14 Oct 2019 10:03 am
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Well, I'm still stuck, but have a little bit better idea of what's happening. I'll try to summarize:
Three pedals/levers (C, LL, and LR) are attached to one or both of the E strings. The C pedal is actually working fine, so I left it be. As I understand it, the adjustable parts of the guitar are:
1) Baseline set screw/nut for where the pedal/lever should rest
2) Travel limit set screw/nut for where the pedal/lever should stop traveling
2a) The location of the rod and lever assembly on their respective bellcranks which control the amount of mechanical advantage between lever/pedal movement and rod movement
3) Nylon nut that controls the relationship between rod travel and string finger
3a) The nylon nut's location on the block
4) the tuner at the head of the instrument
The nylon nuts (3) for LL and LR were definitely overtightened, so I backed them way off so they were more or less in line with their neighbors. (My understanding is that they should not be tensioning the string at all when their respective pedals or levers are not engaged).
I then backed off the set screws that limit rod/lever travel for both the LL and LR levers (2) to allow additional rod travel distance. This solved LL, but LR is now not returning to pitch after engagement. That is, when i push it to the right, it just stays there. My understanding is that the combined tension of the string and spring should be what returns it to its resting place against the other set screw.
EDIT: If I press and release the C pedal, the string comes to pitch. Otherwise, it stays flat. I can also bring it to pitch by manually moving the lever back to the left. When it is flat, there is no slack in the system. When i move the lever back to the left, there is a similar amount of slack to the other rods.
If I needed more travel, it seems I could certainly could move the rod's location on the bellcrank (2a) (the one that looks like a comb, or in the GFI's case, a lego technics piece) or where the rod screws into the nylon nut (3a), but it seems weird that the factory setup for those would not be correct on the default copedent. But the amount of travel isn't the problem (now); it's that the lever doesn't have enough pulling it back to rest, even after I tune up at rest using (1).
Other possible sources could be mechanical failure or weakening of springs, nylon nut being stripped, etc, but I'm assuming for the time being that I'm still in maladjustment territory and/or am misunderstanding something.
I've read through the stickied post (thanks @Jon Light et al, I learned a lot) but am still not quite there yet. Hopefully this will be useful to other beginners...
Thanks in advance for your expertise!
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Austin, TX |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2019 12:22 pm
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If the E-lower isn't returning back up to pitch, you likely have one of two problems:
1) Something is binding -- either in the changer or pull train -- and the friction isn't allowing free movement of that changer finger.
2) The spring it too weak on that string and needs tightening.
The issue should be addressed in the above order, because you want to fix binding before just nuking the situation and tightening the spring. Tightening the spring may work, but it can sometimes just overpower the actual binding problem rather than addressing it.
To find out if something is binding, it's a good idea to divide and conquer: separate issues with the changer from those of the rest of the pull train.
Binding in the Changer:
To check if the changer is the culprit rather than the pull train, try lowering the 4th string by taking a screwdriver or pen and manually pushing on the lower finger at the end plate (try not to push in on the nylon nut itself -- we're trying to just lower the string without involving the pull rods so it's a better test if that nylon nut doesn't move in along with the finger).
Does it return to pitch when you stop pushing in with the screwdriver? If so, that indicates the changer is fine and that there's something binding in the rest of the pull train. But if it struggles to come back to pitch, that indicates the pull train isn't to blame and the problem is in the changer.
Binding in the changer can occur either between the scissor fingers or occasionally at the axle. Start by lubricating those areas.
To do the scissors, you'll need to get a drop of lube on the rivets that connect the raise scissor to the lower scissor.If you don't have a long tube or spout, you can run it down, say, coat hanger wire to direct it to the rivet. A drop is all you need, and too much is messy.
Also, manually move that knee lever and get a flashlight and watch and listen for rubbing between the scissors. You might have to get a screwdriver and bend some parts to correct binding.
It probably isn't the axle that's sticking, but go ahead and loosen the 4th string and lube the top of the bridge on each side of the finger. You loosen the string to remove the pressure from the top of the axle, which is where you actually want the lube to end up. Maybe tilt the guitar from side to side to get the lube to run under that finger, and after that, maybe even turn it upside down to let it run toward the top of the axle.
If lube doesn't fix the changer and you can't identify any obvious binding between metal contact points, go ahead and tighten the lower spring. Then do the manual screwdriver test to see if the problem is fixed.
Binding in the Pull Train
If the string behaves correctly when lowering by hand (by pushing on the lower finger with a screwdriver) -- but you still have a problem when lowering the string with a knee lever -- that points to the pull train as the culprit. You might have pull rods that are rubbing on something, the crossbar isn't free and clear, or the knee lever itself may not be moving freely.
Flip the guitar over and do a visual inspection of all the pull rods connected to the knee lever that lowers the 4th string. Try moving the lever by hand and watch and listen for places where there is friction at any point along the rods' travel. Sometimes, you can spot an obvious problem and either bend a rod a little or lube the spot in question. Go ahead lube all metal-to-metal contact points for all pull rods on that lever.
Working our way on upstream on the pull train, sometimes, the cross bar for that knee lever isn't turning freely. Try moving it from side to side by hand to make sure it has a little slack where it goes into the front and back apron. And finally, you can check to see if the knee lever's movement itself is binding by removing it from the equation: trying lowering the string by manually pressing on the bellcrank, then releasing it. If that works OK, then everything along the line is working... except for the knee lever itself and/or how it connects to he crossbar.
Lower-return Spring
If lubing the changer and pull train doesn't fix the problem it's possible that the spring is just old and has lost tension. This is rare, so make sure you don't actually have a binding problem first. As a last resort, try tightening the spring -- but only enough to fix the problem. Actually, it's a good idea to give it a little more tension beyond the point where the string finally returns correctly to pitch. This will give you a little cushion from having a relapse going forward, as that spring continues to weaken over time.
Happy Troubleshooting! |
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Pat Moore
From:
Virginia USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2019 8:03 pm Gfi
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Hi Scott,
Just my 2 cents, but if it were me, I'd call GFI and talk with them as well. They're good folks, and I'm sure can get you back on the road. Great support!
http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com
All the best,
Pat |
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