E9 lacking any key chords?

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Sorry if this has been covered, just give me a thread link if so:

For you deep jazz players: does 10-string E9 with the fairly standard 3+5 lack the ability to easily get any important chords? I'm not really aware of any, but a student asks, and I defer to the true experts here on the Forum.

Assume that the 4th hanging KL lowers string 6 a whole step, with a split when using pedal B; and LKV is both B's to A#.

If anyone has unique pedal/KL changes to make up for chord deficiencies, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks!

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

What is a "4th hanging KL"?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've never come across a useful chord that couldn't be played on E9th.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I haven't run into any. I often leave out the 5th and sometimes for more extended voicings I leave out the root.
When I bump into heavily altered chords I break them down into a couple triads and go from there.

One thing you might try is making you B's to A# lower lever only work on the 5th string. That way if you use your 10th string as the root you have a nice B maj 7th with the E's to Eb lever and an easy B minor maj 7 chord with your B pedal.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 02 August 2006 at 08:05 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 2 Aug 2006 7:19 am

I think the available chords are less an issue for jazz than the register of 10-string E9. Jazz, especially modern jazz, is very much about the texture of the sound. That is why tenor saxes and acoustic bass are popular jazz instruments, and accordions and harmonicas are not. Even if the same chords are available on E9, they are available in a lower, more mellow register on C6 and uni. E9 was bred for high, whiny country lead. A 12-string extended E9 helps somewhat with the low end, but C6 and uni are much better for the lower register fat jazz chords. Even on the upper strings, the root chord on C6 is a couple of whole-steps lower, and that makes a difference. Just my opinion.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Jim P: you know, a knee lever hanging down, not a vertical.

Hey, I plan to come to Rick's shuffle gig this Friday, might come to the store to hang a bit. Might have a little work for you, too, on my MSA D-12.

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

That's what it does best. E9 evolved from country players who were playing country music.

If E9 had evolved from jazz players it would be a different animal.

Problem with C6 is the outdated tonality of the 6th chord sound. Sounds fine if your playing 40s jazz standards. Not so cool if you are trying to play like McCoy Tyner or Coltrane or Miles. The C6 neck is also pitched real low. Maybe something pitched up towards E would be better. Al Marcus is always touting E6.

Think about the legions of great 6 string jazz guitarists that play some of the greatest chord solos and chord comping on just six strings. Why is it that there are very few steel players who have a command of the jazz vocabulary chord wise when right there in front of them is 20 or more strings with all sorts of mechanics to change tones around.

Has anyone ever published a chordal study on the E9 neck that is geared up toward jazz???

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 02 August 2006 at 11:03 AM.]

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

Hi John, Why are you trying to play jazz on your E neck? If you have a C6th neck on your steel, why bother trying to squeeze jazz chords out of the E9 neck? I don't get that. Play the C6th tuning. It ain't that hard at all and I know you are a smart guy and a good picker. The answer to your original question is yes, there are plenty of interesting and useful jazz chords missing from the E9th tuning. Otherwise there would be no need for the C6th tuning. I say cut the strings off of your E neck and just play the C neck for a few years. It'll be the best thing you ever did for your playing and your understanding of the instrument. Don

[This message was edited by Don McClellan on 02 August 2006 at 11:13 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I think E9 is a great neck for playing the more modern "open" sounding jazz chords that keyboard guys like Herbie Hancock, McCoy Tyner etc brought to the jazz table in the 60's and 70's. Those guys were hanging open triads, major 9's and sus4 chords etc. over different bass notes that defined the chords they're playing. So when you think of playing jazz on the E9, you have to try superimposing partial chords over what the bass player is doing. The basic 5+1 C6 setup that most guys have is great for sixth and alt7 chords and works so well for one approach, but you really need more if you want to keep up with the piano players. I've found that I've had to experiment with changes on both necks that kind of end up morphing both tunings together anyway.

I'm still comitted to my double necks, but somewhere off in the distance, I hear a U12 calling.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Hey Don!

This actually came up from a potential student asking whether to start with E9 or a universal, she (finally, a serious female student!) has messed around with a friend's universal tuning, and was afraid the E9 would be seriously lacking compared to that. I'm sure the tonal range of chords would be smaller on E9, but I didn't really have a definitive answer on what exact important chords might not be possible, or easy, on E9 vs uni or C6. Some very interesting replies here, thanks, all.

I advise most new students to go 10-string E9, unless their goal is jazz/swing, then I do recommend considering a universal or D-10. I'm still not personally sold on the universal, somehow I really prefer discrete necks with different sounds, and fewer pedals per neck. But that's another thread or two, eh?!

So folks: what great chords can't the E9 create?

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Big chords are not as easy on E9th unless you master the 4 string grab. On the U-12, you can strum across jazz chords with your thumb - a common C6th technique. On E9th the D string messes up those strummable voicings.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

John...we'll talk on Friday.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Hi Rick
this is the U-12 calling, Rick

What I'm hearing is spot on. C6 with the traditional changes is rooted in the big band era. VERY OLD SCHOOL, YESTERDAY'S CHORDS. A lot of voicings I hear in jazz today can actually be found better on E9 but, as others have pointed out, the range is limited.

It all depends on how you need to play. If you're relying on the bass player for the root and piano player's left hand for the guts of the chord and all you gotta grab is a handful of upper harmonies E9 works great.

E9 is only limited by its own range and the player's imagination. Remember that horns only play one note at a time and a chord sometimes sounds better 'suggested' than played. Leaving out the right notes can be very cool.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Good post, Rick (and Larry).

This is reminiscent of that earlier thread (E9 Myth) of b0b's. I feel that E9 is a more versatile tuning than C6th, given that, as Larry says, C6th is rooted in an earlier era. Noodling around on C6th, I find myself gravitating to those cosy, but old-fashioned, voicings. E9 feels almost limitless by comparison.

OF THE TWO, E9 has more scope for modern music in all categories. As I said recently, I'm very close to going for an extended E9 guitar - I just haven't figured out how to optimise the extra floor pedals that would be available to me.

(I still want that 'D' string, Larry...

)

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 02 August 2006 at 12:44 PM.]

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I have recently gone to Extended E9th and find that I'm able to put those long missing lower note's into quite a bit of my playing already and I've just scratched the surface of what is there. I'll always have my 75"PPD-10, but I'm finding my self sitting behind my SD-12PP 99% of the time now.
JE:-)>

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Hey Roger
Hope you aren't too chilly up there in the great white north.

(I've been noticing that Fargo and Mpls have been hotter than Tampa and Miami for the past week -- what's THAT all about?)

ME TOO -- I love the 9th string NOTE. I just don't have to have it there all the time. A lot of the power of E9 is in using that open D as the root and Roger is a master of using it that way.

OK . . . I know I'm not going to convince you (you stubborn limey)

All seriousness aside -- if you're spending your copious spare hours up there in Medora thinking about Extended E9 think about Terry Crisp's C6 tuning -- with the D and no low C.
F A C D E G A C E D (low to high)
Lower it 1/2 step
E G# B C# D# F# G# B D# C#
and think about E9 with a low G# and E with the E to D# lever pressed and 2 and 9 lowered to C#

Then think about all the E9 lever and pedal changes you can come up with PLUS the logical C6 changes that modified C6 affords. I don't think you'll have a hard time finding enough stuff to hang off an ExtE9 neck.

I used that tuning myself for a while but played too much standard western swing and the C#/D just got in the way of the strums. I might even give it a go myself one of these days. It is a whole lot better for modern jazz rock and pop voicings and KILLER for single string stuff down low.

Think about it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

John -Good post. First of all, the E9 as is, is the Biggie. But you can't get all the FULL chords on it that you can on C6 or B6 or E6 or A6 or Bb6. and as Boby Lee said , you cant strum, like you can on the 6th tuning.
You have to be more selective on E9. If you have a good Bass man to hit the right root notes, it sure helps.
Bill brings up the point of C6 or B6 being too low. could be. Buddy Emmons listed once, on his 12 string Carter and experimental E6, he also listed an experimental C6.
Don McClellan made some good points. It is easy to play both necks and jumping from one to the other to play certain songs is no problem. No jumping on the E9/B6 nd works well with a lot of players, But it is not exaclty like C6 ,the way it is laid out in order to accommodate The E9 side.
I had mSA setup my Millenium to one of my E6/E9 configurations, but it took 13 strings, so I had to take one sting off. Here is the 13 string E6/E9...al

Top down-
1.F#
2.D#
3.G#
4.E
5.C#
6.B
7.G#
8.F#
9.E
10.C#
11.B
12.G#
13.E
the 11 and 12 on a pedal will drop a whole tone to A and F#, giving the Curly Chalker bottom or one Reece used. now with your A and B pedals you get a lot more on the bottom with it on E9(like an extended E9).You can put all the standard E9 pulls and the standard C6 pulls on it and still strum if you want. The only thing for strumming, the 8th string F# can be dropped to E like on the Christian tuning or raise it to G on the minor pedal that lowers the 7th Stn G# so thay dont clash, I think one of these Tunings is charted on my Website....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

This place is crazy!!!!!!!!!

It was 110 degrees here on Sunday with very high humidity (I know - I was playing golf!), yet we dealt with rain and low-sixties yesterday. It'll be good to return to FL to cool off!

A word about my fabulous Emmons LeGrande 111 here - it's set up on stage permanently and, although it's under cover, it's virtually exposed to the elements the whole time. Only once did I have to touch the tuning - this is the World's most stable guitar!
===========================================

Thanks, Larry, for your thoughts. I'm going to have to spend a day with a lot of scrap paper and a lot of coffee before I can settle on something. Terry's C6th sounds like something I could implement right now, though - that 'D' note would be infinitely more useful than the low 'C'. I've fooled with lowering my E and raising my C, but it's just too unwieldy. I could just switch a couple of strings and try it on my 'new' Mullen...

As a template for an extended E9, it has clear possibilities, but my brain keeps dropping out of gear as I try to envisage it. I'm dealing with 30 years of E9 10-string brainwashing, and six years of C6th, which is why I'm gonna need those sheets of paper!

It's nearly (though not quite) time for a call to Jerry Fessenden. Ext E9 on a double body in a delicate shade of....black, methinks!

RR

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

A few years ago I changed my 12 string BMI from the standard Universal tuning to the following:






   <  ^  >  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  <  >


F#


C#  D#    D


G#                 A


E                                 F# F  D#


B      A#       C#    C# C#


G#                 A  A  A#


F#           G#             F


E                                 F# F  D#


C#        D                    C


B   A#          C#             A#


G#                 A


E            C#             F  D#

It's got a lot of things others mentioned before such as lowering the 5th string without lowering the 10th. I do that on LKV but lower the 10th LKL. If I need 'em both together I can do it very easily on my guitar.

Someone mentioned the Terry Crisp type of Copedant which drops the low C and adds the D note. When my 4th & 8th strings are lowered I have that. When soloing in a 6th style that C# note on the 9th string is really handy plus when in E9th I raise it to D and it's right where most E9th players want the D string to be.

All in all, what I have is sort of an Extended E9th/E6th type of tuning I'm sticking with it for the rest of my life. I've tried most everything else and this seems to work the best for me.........JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Mike Shefrin · Posted 2 Aug 2006 2:37 pm

Hi John M,
One change that is helpful in playing jazz
chords(and lines) on the E9 neck is the lowering of the fifth string,your B string to Bb(or A#). I say Bb,and not A# since I am flatting the 5th(the note B) and not sharping the 4th(the note A).Basic theory. For me, most of the really good,and full sounding jazz chords which have tensions(regardless of whether using the root or not) are four note voicings, so buy yourself an extra finger pick (or you can play them with your fingers as I do,heh heh)Heck...play open strings 9(D) 6(G#) 5(B) 4(E) and you have a dominant seventh chord.Now press down your "a" or first pedal to raise the note B to C# and you have a nice E 13th chord voicing-(D,G#,C#,E)
It admittedly takes awhile to get used to four note right hand grips but I've found all the jazz chords I need on the E9 neck- major 7ths,major 6 9 chords,
diminished,augmented, minor seventh flat fives,etc,etc.Look for them...they're all there on the neck just staring you in the face and waiting to be discovered and played.

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 04 August 2006 at 10:25 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Mike Shefrin · Posted 3 Aug 2006 1:47 pm

Good point Jeff. Anyone who is serious about playing jazz(regardless of their instrument)really needs to have some sort of grounded, inherent knowledge about harmony and theory,scales and so forth.

(check out this thread if you like) http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum10/HTML/201776.html

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 03 August 2006 at 02:52 PM.]

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

" E9 lacking any key chords?"

How about a really FAT "Hendrix chord"(E7#9)?
JP

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Jim,
If you leave the root to the bass player that chord is on the 6th fret strings 9, 6 and 5 with the A pedal in.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

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