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Topic: Lowering 4th string a whole step |
James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2019 4:08 pm |
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Do any of you guys set a pedal or a lever to lower the E strings a whole step. I mean without messing with the lever that lowers it a half step.
I have thought about changing the horizontal lever to do that. I almost never use it as it is. The problem with that is that I am a whole lot slower on that lever than any other lever or pedal. It would need to be a fast change.
Or, is it possible to use one of the two levers to the right to accomplish an additional task?
Or, what would be the feasibility of adding a 9th pedal just for that purpose?
I am playing a lot of blues licks that would sound a lot better if I didn't have to move the bar to hit a seventh.
In case it makes a difference I play a Fessenden D10.
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Georg SΓΈrtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2019 5:08 am
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On my guitars, the D below the E on the fourth string is available as a half stop on the second string, and the D below the E on the eighth string is on the ninth string.
Do those not work for you, or have you got a different setup?
--Al Evans
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Aug 2019 7:41 am
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My instant reaction was "No-one does that - it can't be necessary". I look forward to being enlightened, as always.
_________________
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2019 7:56 am
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You can lower the 4th string a full tone I suppose.. however you might need another lever to do so, or use a feel stop on the lever that lowers both e's, but IMO, it would not work well.. I understand what you are looking for.. I do not use an Eb for my second string.. I use an E and use the full and half tone lowers a LOT on that string.. MUCH more than I used the standard Eb-D-C#..
Another thing you might consider is a lever that raises the 2nd string Eb to E, and the 1st string f# a full tone.. It has become a common change, and there you will have the full range of what you are looking for.. It just means have to do some of the things on the 2nd string that you would prefer doing on the 4th.. Either way will work, it just depends on what you want, and where you want it.. bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2019 8:05 am
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| Julian Tharpe did that. |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2019 6:48 pm
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
You can lower the 4th string a full tone I suppose.. however you might need another lever to do so, or use a feel stop on the lever that lowers both e's, but IMO, it would not work well.. I understand what you are looking for.. I do not use an Eb for my second string.. I use an E and use the full and half tone lowers a LOT on that string.. MUCH more than I used the standard Eb-D-C#..
Another thing you might consider is a lever that raises the 2nd string Eb to E, and the 1st string f# a full tone.. It has become a common change, and there you will have the full range of what you are looking for.. It just means have to do some of the things on the 2nd string that you would prefer doing on the 4th.. Either way will work, it just depends on what you want, and where you want it.. bob |
One thing I tried today that may work is putting a tube style slide on my little finger, then touch the 4th string 2 frets back while pulling the bar forward so that it doesn't touch the 4th string.
I am going to have to think about your suggestion with respect to the first 2 strings.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2019 8:30 pm
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I had that Str 4 lower to D on my Williams Ext E9, which I had bought used. It was on a forward left left knee lever. I enjoyed it. It was useful.
I gave it up when I simplified my setup. Pedal steel is alway a matter of priorities.
John |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 12:08 am
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lowering 2nd string to C# and working 2 frets below typical no pedals position with either A or C pedal can produce lots of blues based bends/slides without having to move the bar.
Maybe consider a P4 pedal(next to C pedal) with 6str G#->A# and 5 str B-C#
It is also quite useful for accessing both blues based and other jazzy sounds. The A# on string 6 is a wonderful option to splittune back to A if you have a G#-G lower on some lever or on P5.
A quick b7 to root bend I find easiest in the A+F(lever) position. Unison root note can be found at 2nd string if lowered to C#.
There was a time when I thought it would be nice to lower that 4th string a wholestep to get some familar blues based licks, but I have found so many ways to work around not having it, that I dont see it as a neccesary change and there is tons of blues stuff to be played even without that change.
Lowering 2nd string to D at same time as raising 1 to G is a far more blues based lever than raising 2 to E and 1 to G# in my opinion. It is not a common change but it sure allows for some fun licks. (just try tune 2nd to D and 1st to G and explore some possibilites to see/hear what I mean)
B.Erlandsen |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 2:08 am
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| James, you can get the same effect by lowering the E with the E lever, then sliding back one fret and adding the B pedal while half-pedaling the A pedal. It takes lots of practice, but it's another way of getting the same M-b7th with the standard setup. It works nicely, and I often use it on slow stuff like "Together Again". But, it would be challenging to do it on anything up-tempo. |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 7:03 am
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| Bengt Erlandsen wrote: |
lowering 2nd string to C# and working 2 frets below typical no pedals position with either A or C pedal can produce lots of blues based bends/slides without having to move the bar.
Maybe consider a P4 pedal(next to C pedal) with 6str G#->A# and 5 str B-C#
It is also quite useful for accessing both blues based and other jazzy sounds. The A# on string 6 is a wonderful option to splittune back to A if you have a G#-G lower on some lever or on P5.
A quick b7 to root bend I find easiest in the A+F(lever) position. Unison root note can be found at 2nd string if lowered to C#.
There was a time when I thought it would be nice to lower that 4th string a wholestep to get some familar blues based licks, but I have found so many ways to work around not having it, that I dont see it as a neccesary change and there is tons of blues stuff to be played even without that change.
Lowering 2nd string to D at same time as raising 1 to G is a far more blues based lever than raising 2 to E and 1 to G# in my opinion. It is not a common change but it sure allows for some fun licks. (just try tune 2nd to D and 1st to G and explore some possibilites to see/hear what I mean)
B.Erlandsen |
That is good advice. For one thing it convinced me that lowering the E a whole step would not sound right for single note sequences. That is because lowering the 4th string would would sound about the same as lowering the second string a whole step. The only advantage I can see now to lowering E a whole step is to slide into a 7th chord using a higher pitched D note than the one already in place with the 9th string as the 7th note.
The whole idea is to find ways on the E9 neck to back up classic blues. A song like Stormy Monday would be a good candidate. It is easy with the steel to end up with a sing song sound despite best efforts. It takes some effort to avoid that. Playing genuine blues on a steel is an adaption of course because the instrument never comes out sounding bluesy naturally. This is no emergency. It would be an added dimension.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 7:42 am
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| Lowering the 4th string a whole step plus raising it a whole step on the C pedal, is asking quite a bit of from a .014 gauge string |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 9:33 am
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| Tony Glassman wrote: |
| Lowering the 4th string a whole step plus raising it a whole step on the C pedal, is asking quite a bit of from a .014 gauge string |
Nah, it would be ok.. For many many years I lowered my 3rd string G#[.011] a full tone on a pedal, and used it a LOT, and the breakage was about the same as on my pedal steels without that change.. The late John Fabian once told me that lowering a string with a raise on it as well, has no effect on string breakage at all, that it was raises alone that caused strings to break.. At the time i didn't really believe that, but over the decades i have been playing I have come to find out that its true... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 11:21 am
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Donny's suggestion is a good example of the coordination between a bar movement and a pedal/lever change that was necessary in the old days of limited changes and is in danger of becoming a lost art.
_________________
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 11:59 am
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| James Quillian wrote: |
| Playing genuine blues on a steel is an adaption of course because the instrument never comes out sounding bluesy naturally. |
I disagree. Listen to Dan Tyack. It's all in your phrasing and your choice of amplification. Steel players have been taught to play country licks and tones. The instrument itself is genre-agnostic.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 1:54 pm
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I find it the most natural thing to trade licks with a man wrestling a Strat.
Like b0b says, it's all in the phrasing, and the agnosticism.
_________________
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 2:07 pm
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I love lowering the E strings a whole step so much that I dedicated a whole separate knee lever (RKR)for this change, separate from the E-half step lower lever.
Using this change by itself gives a nice bluesy sound in no pedals position that you just can't get sick of (sure you can get the note many other ways, but it's not the same).
In addition, this change is useful in many other positions. Use it in pedals-down position to give you a 3 to 4 change (same sound as using just the B pedal in no-pedals position). But wait, there's more...Add a split tuning rod and tune it to D# when using together with the F-lever to give you a nice 3-down-to-2 change in F lever position. When in the Bb position with E's lowered a half step, you get a nice,fat, jazzy minor 7th chord. What's not to like?
You might run into some trouble if you put this change on a vertical lever because lowering the E's a full tone requires lots of travel that is not practical on a vertical (I tried, but it's worth to try for yourself, make it extra short/stiff travel and see). If you put it on a pedal you will not get the benefit of using the change in pedals down position and F -lever position (big drawback). Unless you put it on pedal 10 and right-foot it. this way you could use it with AB pedals and F lever position, but you'd have to take your foot off the volume pedal. A second choice would be to put it as pedal-zero if you have the space, at least it would be closer to the ABC pedals for ease of use. Putting it on pedal 9 would be impractical because of the big jump from ABC pedals all the way to 9th pedal (again, unless you use the right foot, see pedal 10 option above)..So, it's best suited for a regular knee lever. If you can't get it to work well with the vertical and can't sacrifice an existing lever for this change, maybe get an extra inner/outer lever (Crawford Cluster style). Another option is to move an existing, low travel, left or right knee lever to the vertical lever and have the E full tone lower on that lever that you moved. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 7:46 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| James Quillian wrote: |
| Playing genuine blues on a steel is an adaption of course because the instrument never comes out sounding bluesy naturally. |
I disagree. Listen to Dan Tyack. It's all in your phrasing and your choice of amplification. Steel players have been taught to play country licks and tones. The instrument itself is genre-agnostic. |
"genre-agnostic".. Very cool .
You are correct b0b.. I played a lot of authentic blues with very good musicians, with a plain old E9 copedent, and it sounded like blues.. Blues is a feeling, its in the soul, not so much in the tuning.. The only place the 10 string standard E9 copedent would be "lacking" as far as real blues application, might be in its limited bass range.. However that is readily compensated for with the right touch, tone and feel... As a six string electric guitarist with a blues based style dating back decades, when I played blues on E9 pedal steel , I never felt "limited", just wished I had a bit more bass range once in a while .. If a steel player really feels he needs that extra bass range, a 12 string extended E9 would be all he would ever need. All the notes are there in all the different timbres. One would simply have to arrange them correctly for them to sound properly bluesy... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 9:20 pm
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Bob, if you did not feel limited when starting playing blues on E9th then you must be a better player than most people. I also was into 6-string blues guitar before picking up steel and when I started, it was almost all about the no-pedal position at first (and it still kind of is when I play blues now after adding some blues changes such as the E whole tone lower we are talking about.) The E9th does not have many blues (pentatonic minor) changes in the most obvious no-pedals position because E9th is a major based tuning. Even after working through a blues instructional course for E9th to find the blues note pockets in other positions, it still felt not completely right to me.
Having more blues changes in the no-pedals position would be a great way to get newer players enjoying playing blues on E9th in a shorter time. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 10:43 pm
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A lot of blues slide guitar is played in E major or G major tuning. The minor pentatonics are 3 frets above the major chord. On E9th, use the A pedal to get the root tone. Release it to get the b7th. All of the minor pentatonic notes are right there. Or you can use the E lever one fret above the V chord (8th fret for key of E). Or use the B&C pedals 2 frets below the root fret (3rd fret in key of A). Minor penatonics are all over the place in E9th.
I've always felt that Extended E9th is the ultimate blues tuning. I'm not a "great" player, but blues always seemed as natural as country on the instrument to me. You just use different positions to get the scale tones. It is, after all, a pentatonic tuning (5 notes to the octave).
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 11:33 pm
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b0b, that is great advice. I will get into these other blues pockets positions at some point in more depth, but to be honest, I kind of lost interest in blues playing and am trying to improve melodic/harmonic "country style" playing at this point in time.
Also, probably more blues 6 string guitar players are not into the open major slide tunings you mentioned, but standard tuned, pentatonic minor box pattern type blues. Kind of like SRV. Having blues pedals on PSG in the no-pedals position is more relatable to this kind of box pattern pentatonic 6 string playing.
What I know for sure is that I can still play that 3 frets up position with pressing the A pedal on and off move on my guitar if I want to, but unless someone modifies the "standard" E9th a little on their guitar, they won't be able to play some of the cool sounding blues pedal moves I have on my guitar. Ones that you can easily get in the open, no-pedals position and alternate them easily with the major sounding country stuff, ALL ON ONE FRET or withing a fret or 2.
It is not just about getting the right blues notes, but also being able to pedal into them in the most different, interesting ways. That's the point of playing Pedal steel and not just slide guitar. That pedaling sound.
It's about having more options; yes, a better player will even do better with fewer options, but all things equal, more options is better. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Aug 2019 11:39 pm
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Bob is right about the low notes. I play a 12- string and when I take a solo in a blues number I tend to start out in a predictable register and finish low down - I get the feeling that those around me are not expecting those growling sounds - and much more scope for expression than yanking the bottom string on a regular guitar 
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 21 Aug 2019 2:28 am
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Any notion that blues-flavoured licks 'can't be played' on a standard E9 set-up can be dispelled by listening to Buddy Emmons on Ray Charles' 'Volcanic Action of my Soul' that was cut back in, I think, 1972.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2019 5:15 am
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
Bob, if you did not feel limited when starting playing blues on E9th then you must be a better player than most people. I also was into 6-string blues guitar before picking up steel and when I started, it was almost all about the no-pedal position at first (and it still kind of is when I play blues now after adding some blues changes such as the E whole tone lower we are talking about.) The E9th does not have many blues (pentatonic minor) changes in the most obvious no-pedals position because E9th is a major based tuning. Even after working through a blues instructional course for E9th to find the blues note pockets in other positions, it still felt not completely right to me.
Having more blues changes in the no-pedals position would be a great way to get newer players enjoying playing blues on E9th in a shorter time. |
I am not an exceptional player.. I always called my skill level
"Honky Tonk Journeyman level"..
As b0b stated, there is a TON of good blues in a plain old E major tuning on a lap guitar.. The E9 pedal steel tuning DOES lack some range in the bass, no question, but as I stated before, every single note is there for good soulful blues.. they just have to be brought forth in the proper order with the proper sound, and the proper emotion..
I am 65 years old, and at this time in my life am no longer performing on stage as I did for over 45 years.. However if I was ever to join a blues band that wanted a "blues steel player"-[fat chance right?] I would instantly just pick up a 12 string extended E9 pedal guitar.. It has everything needed for any blues music I can envision , including the bass range lacking on a standard 10 string E9.. blues is emotion, feel, tone, "soul" if you will.. I have seen spectacular blues based music performed on Ukes, trumpets, pianos, organs, harmonicas, sax, violins, 12 string acoustics, Telecasters, lap steels, pedal steels, tub basses and washboards.. There is a TON of good soulful blues in a basic E9 pedal steel.. Just needs the right heart and hands to get it out... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2019 5:26 am
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| Jacek Jakubek wrote: |
b0b, that is great advice. I will get into these other blues pockets positions at some point in more depth, but to be honest, I kind of lost interest in blues playing and am trying to improve melodic/harmonic "country style" playing at this point in time.
Also, probably more blues 6 string guitar players are not into the open major slide tunings you mentioned, but standard tuned, pentatonic minor box pattern type blues. Kind of like SRV. Having blues pedals on PSG in the no-pedals position is more relatable to this kind of box pattern pentatonic 6 string playing.
What I know for sure is that I can still play that 3 frets up position with pressing the A pedal on and off move on my guitar if I want to, but unless someone modifies the "standard" E9th a little on their guitar, they won't be able to play some of the cool sounding blues pedal moves I have on my guitar. Ones that you can easily get in the open, no-pedals position and alternate them easily with the major sounding country stuff, ALL ON ONE FRET or withing a fret or 2.
It is not just about getting the right blues notes, but also being able to pedal into them in the most different, interesting ways. That's the point of playing Pedal steel and not just slide guitar. That pedaling sound.
It's about having more options; yes, a better player will even do better with fewer options, but all things equal, more options is better. |
I can give you one tip i learned many decades ago concerning blues on a pedal steel.. I personally tried to avoid to a degree the traditional "pedal into" sound associated with the E9 tuning.. I used a LOT less pedal action, and when I did use pedals, it was more to simply change the tuning.. in other words, If I were playing say a blues thing that had C Em, Am, i would not pedal into those changes... I would use the pedals as a fast transition into another tuning and continue to play more like a slide or lap steel player would... I seldom let that pedaled sound slip out, and when I did I made it a priority that it was appropriate to what we were doing on that particular song...
If you continually pedal into the changes as you might on a country song, you will sound like country pedal steel player, faking the blues... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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