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Topic: Questions about tone |
Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 12:19 pm |
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Hello. My buddies.
So I've been throwing money at tone. I know tone is in the hands, but to a certain degree it's in your amp, pedal, and guitar.
I played push pulls for a long time. Recently I got a Zum, really nice one with 8x8-traded a '75 Emmons as part of the deal. The mechanics are "enlightening" to a veteran push pull guy. But...
The tone is "bland" to my ear through a Quilter Steelaire. And its waaay too "icy" through a Fender Super Reverb.
So am I just missing the push/pull tone or is there something that one should do to try to get back to that "sound".
Thanks
Tab
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 12:43 pm
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I've owned a couple of Zums and there is nothing bland about them. 
Erv |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 12:43 pm Re: Questions about tone
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| Tab Tabscott wrote: |
| Recently I got a Zum |
I believe it takes time. I have changed brands on other instruments (trombone, clarinet etc.) and been dissatisfied for a while until eventually the sound that's in my head ("my sound") finds its way out of the instrument.
Now I know that push-pulls have a certain distinctive aroma, but I'm certain that if you persevere you will get a pleasing result, and once you get used to the extra changes there'll be no going back anyway 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 12:58 pm amp suggestion?
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Erv-what do you play it through? Im looking for suggestions on how to alter the tone...you know, fatten it up. Im not dissing Zums Im just an all pull newbie...
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 1:21 pm
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The assumption is that each BRAND X instrument is capable of, or produces the same "TONE". Thats not the case. Some brand x instruments are exquisite, others that are supposedly exactly the same , don't sound the same. They sound different.
Different doesn't mean bad, it means different.
How come all Sho Buds don't sound the same ? Like many,I've owned half dozen or more different Sho Buds, but to my ears, only ONE had what would be called that KILLER SHO BUD tone. It jumped out from the first note.
Push Pulls, same deal, some are just plain incredible, others are just pretty good. They are not all equal.
Pickups, pickup height, string gauges, string age, mechanical structure, is everything tight to the body, do they have the same metal parts etc... Its like baking a cake, the ingredients have to be perfect to win the bake off award, that is, if the Baker is paying attention.
I own 5 Telecasters, I love them all. Go ahead, ask me if they all sound the same . I'll spare you the thought process, NO they don't. They all sound GOOD to my ears though. I know which ones offer which range of tones, I know they are not the same.
As Ian says above, the Zum is more than likely a fine instrument with excellent tonal ability, but you may have to dig around a while to learn what it can deliver for you.
But also, there are some instruments where we can chase tone to NO END. They just don't have what we are seeking. So we sell it. The next person LOVES it and says it's exactly what they have been seeking !
Go figure !
Give it time . I play two Emmons Steels, a Push Pull and a Legrande II. They both sound very good to me, but they are not the same. I had to spend time figuring out what it was I was looking for on each.
Give it time and what you are seeking will arrive.
The brand name badge is not a guarantee that when we plug in a guitar to an amp , euphoria happens immediately !
If you are using an amp with a MID RANGE and MID RANGE SHIFT, start there. I have a real bad opinion on this right here. If a Guitar or Steel is having tone issues, I focus on the Mid Range and Mid Range shift. These knobs can take a guitar from horrible to pretty good to real good back top horrible again in a very small sweep of the knob !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 5:33 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
The assumption is that each BRAND X instrument is capable of, or produces the same "TONE". Thats not the case. Some brand x instruments are exquisite, others that are supposedly exactly the same , don't sound the same. They sound different.
Different doesn't mean bad, it means different...
Give it time . I play two Emmons Steels, a Push Pull and a Legrande II. They both sound very good to me, but they are not the same. I had to spend time figuring out what it was I was looking for on each.
Give it time and what you are seeking will arrive.
The brand name badge is not a guarantee that when we plug in a guitar to an amp , euphoria happens immediately !
If you are using an amp with a MID RANGE and MID RANGE SHIFT, start there. I have a real bad opinion on this right here. If a Guitar or Steel is having tone issues, I focus on the Mid Range and Mid Range shift. These knobs can take a guitar from horrible to pretty good to real good back top horrible again in a very small sweep of the knob ! |
Thanks Tony! Words to live by, right there. Many players spend time trying to make one guitar sound like another. Instead, search for the "voice" of every guitar you play. Each one has a particular and unique "voice aspect", something it does exceptionally well. Learn to appreciate different voices like you appreciate different foods. In my playing career (well over a half century of it), I've played and heard thousands of guitars. Not one of them had what I'd call a "bad tone". Oh yes, I've heard players who played with a bad tone, but that was their fault, not the guitars'.
The "one sound - one tone for everything" idea is ultimately a bad one, a boring one. (And now you know why Buddy Emmons played so many different brands.) |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 6:18 pm
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Tab you could call me or just play your PP through a Nashville 400 and keep smiling. 971-219-8533. I’ ll Stand by....
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 6:59 pm
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Tony said:
“If you are using an amp with a MID RANGE and MID RANGE SHIFT, start there.â€
Tony are there any common generalizations you can make about adjusting the mids, or is it just totally different amp by amp? (I know the answer most likely) I have read many conflicting things about adjusting mid range; I’m obviously looking for some SOP, but I know that it’s probably different with every amp.
I’m in a quandary now with an amp.....thinking it’s just not gonna work out.
Thnx,
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A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 7:36 pm
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Probably first things to mess with are pickup height, string brands/ gauges and maybe a clean boost pedal, if you don't already have one. I like the TC electronics sparks that were made before Behringer bought them (I've heard the recent ones are a little iffy on the footswitches, and I did have a bad one).
"Icy" describes the steel fingerpicks I use, also, vs nickle silver or brass
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- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2019 8:11 pm
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I agree with Tony and Donny. But, tone is a very, very subjective thing. I have a Session 400 that KILLS on an outdoor stage. I have a 5e3 tweed deluxe clone with 6L6 output tubes. 200w into a 15 -vs- 18w into a 12 inch speaker. There is no doubt in my mind that the deluxe is the best tone I've ever experienced with my 1970 Sho~Bud. It's astounding to me...at living room levels. The Bud is entirely different than a Zum. But, finding the right amp for the actual need is important.
A guy I know has a Zum. I'd never heard one up close; he played through a peavey nashville 112. The sound was so different! Each note was thick, like the overtones were so abundant that it almost sounded chorused. My Bud is very very focused. Like a Telecaster in a way. I'm not sure I'd be able to get "my tone" on a Zum, though they are truly great instruments.
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 12:08 am
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| Brooks Montgomery wrote: |
Tony said:
“If you are using an amp with a MID RANGE and MID RANGE SHIFT, start there.â€
Tony are there any common generalizations you can make about adjusting the mids, or is it just totally different amp by amp? (I know the answer most likely) I have read many conflicting things about adjusting mid range; I’m obviously looking for some SOP, but I know that it’s probably different with every amp.
I’m in a quandary now with an amp.....thinking it’s just not gonna work out.
Thnx, |
My response is gonna be very subjective. IF 2 or 3 amps that are side by side are indeed the same and equal, you may get a similar sound from each, given the settings are the same. If one has a different speaker than all bets are off.
Overall, for me, on PV amps, less mid range boost and something near 300 on the sweep seems to be where I end up . I personally tend to dial out MID range struff, I hear MUD. Others add MID range . My Nashville 112, I find it to be really MID strong with the stock speaker so I pulled it and replaced it with a Fender Gold Label Emmi which leans bright with a weaker MID range response. I find it to be perfect, for me. I just lean LESS MIDS with all the amps I use. Apparently I have learned over my journey that I don't like strong MID range tones !
Overall, this is just too subjective for me to answer one way or the other. A great guitar can sound like MUD thru the wrong amp and speaker and vice versa. A great amp may not be able to dial in a guitar that is NOT "capable".
It just takes time and more time. The more gigs we play the better off we are. Setting our gear up at home may have little or no relevance on a stage or small room venue. Especially an outdoor stage.
Rick above says something that to me is very profound,
"finding the right amp for the actual need is important"
One thing we all do, as players, musicians, collectors of gear etc., we never stop buying gear to seek that definitive tone. Maybe we don't even know what we are looking for !
At the risk of being presumptuous, if we own a PV amp, start with the MID knob at 9 o'clock, and the shift near 300 . Experiment, see what you like, see what you don't like. It doesn't take much. 1/4 inch turn one way or the other can change the entire dynamics.
Disclaimer, I'm not an expert, I am not the go to mid range guy, I'm still trying to figure it all out myself. I can be happy on gigs with a reasonable sound, I am not seeking the award for best tone !
And heres the worst, we go see player A , who says he has dialed in the perfect tone. We walk away saying to ourselves, man he has bad tone ! 
Its not really that bad, most players sound pretty darn good and then spend way too much time trying to take pretty good to perfect. "Define perfect".
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 12:27 am
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The mid-range control with adjustable peak frequency is a mixed blessing. It's pretty much standard now; what is not standard is how flat the neutral setting is.
This makes it hard to compare amps in a crucial part of their range.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 4:30 am Questions about tone
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| I have owned two Emmons PP'S but now have a 82 Zum with the original, single coil pickups. I am using a Stereo Steel and an Evans rack mount pre-amp, a Black Box, a Wet Reverb, and DD-3. The sound I am getting is great and I couldn't be happier. This is only after going through a bunch of amps. A Steel King, Steelaire, Nashville 400, Nashville 112, Mesa Boogie, and a Katana. All of the amps sounded OK, but OK was not what I was looking for. I am taking delivery of an Evans SE 200 on Sept. 8 for a practice and back up amp and to use when time and space is short to set up my rack system. Unless you have some pickups that are not suiting you, I can guarantee you it's not the Zum. They are tone machines. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 7:46 am
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| Tab, I sent you an email. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 8:23 am
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I had a new Zum D-10 back in 2003. I 'struggled' with it for several weeks before selling it on because I couldn't find a tone I liked (or one that matched my Emmons).
How I wish now that I'd persevered! The Zum (all black) was an engineering masterpiece and I've often felt as though I didn't give it a chance.
Lesson learned.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 9:41 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Many players spend time trying to make one guitar sound like another. Instead, search for the "voice" of every guitar you play. Each one has a particular and unique "voice aspect", something it does exceptionally well. |
As I recall, Mike Perlowin used to preach that same sermon, years ago.
I agree |
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Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 10:47 am
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Tony said it all I believe.
For me it was in the amp, I tried 5 (Fender tube etc)
However I learned a long time ago the tone on your instrument changes with outside influences. Eg: Outdoor venues, acoustic effects from rooms that differ and the list goes on. Also if you rehearse with a headset on as I do this also will have an effect on your ear hearing a differ tone.
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Mullen SD10, Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, Wayne Brown “Custom Designed Amp” |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 5:20 pm
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Well, IMHO, the Emmons PP & the Zum are the 2 best sounding guitars made, so you might just be used to the PP sound. I shoulda never sold my 2 PPs, OR my Zum.
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A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 7:17 pm
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| I am a Super Pro D10 guy and the only thing I use is a Hilton Volume Pedal, NV112 and a Steel Guitar Black Box. Nothing else. Just another breed of Cats. All in the tone controls of my amp and, of course, the right hand. To me the Shift control makes the difference of night and day warming up the tone. Tried a lot of amps over a 40 year period. Can't beat the Peavey for voicing. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 10:41 pm
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I've had this experience fairly often. I sit down to play with a band and my tone just sucks. I twist the knobs of the amp a bit but it doesn't really help. So I resign myself to it and just play. After about half an hour I start thinking about tone again and realize that it sounds fine. But I haven't really changed anything!
I think it's truly in the hands. My hands weren't "warmed up" in the beginning. My attack was timid, my intonation was a bit off, and my right hand hadn't found the sweet spot on the strings. As I played those first few songs, the muscle memories kicked in and my hands found their special music place.
I know this sounds like mumbo jumbo crazy talk, but it has happened to me on many occasions. I've learned not to think about tone too much unless it's still way off after an hour or so. At that point, I start looking carefully at my rig to see if something's amiss.
If you know that your guitar, amp and accessories are all good, don't worry too much about tone. Maybe your hands just aren't warmed up yet.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2019 10:47 pm
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One more thing after reading your original post... A good friend went from an Emmons to a Mullen and couldn't get the sound he wanted. He added a Sarno Freeloader into the chain. Turns out that his passive Goodrich pedal didn't like the Mullen pickup so much. The Freeloader solved it.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 1:13 am
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| b0b wrote: |
I know this sounds like mumbo jumbo crazy talk, but it has happened to me on many occasions. |
In many cases, MUMBO JUMBO leads to the correct formula, which is NOT the same for each of us, even if we have the so called BEST Steel and BEST amp.
Shockingly,there is another element.  
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 1:53 am
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To add to bOb's observations: I think sometimes my ears have to warm up as well. Often, when I switch to dobro or lap steel for a couple of songs, the pedal steel sounds completely different to me as soon as I go back to it. Yes, it could be the hands, but I really think it's my ears.
Damn! We're a sensitive lot! |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 3:59 am
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Everything everyone’s said has been good.
It’s arguable, I suppose, but there’s little reason to suspect your Zum or Emmons or a Sho-Bud is where the tone ISN’T. Those steels got it. Yeah, I know, every ones different, etc., and setup DOES make a difference but I’d look at your amp setup.
A Twin is hard to beat. And carry. A Sarno rev or V8 thru a Furlong cabinet is my go-to. |
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 30 Aug 2019 6:37 am Roger that
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Thanks for the inputs gentlemen. The Steelaire does have low and mid knobs. And twisting them seems like I am on the right path.
I ran the two at about 4 and 5 and it fattened things right up.
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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