9th chord construction question

Sherman Willden · From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA



I have ninth chord construction questions from one of Tommy Roots chord runs. 


This is from his course “Advanced Chromatic Lesson II” which I bought about 1991 or so 


and is Lesson I B on page 10 in the key of C.





Chord		CMAJ7	C9th	Bb9th	A9th	G9th	


4	E	 3	 3	(6+1)	5	(3+1) ~	3


5	B	(3+1)	(3+1)	 6	5	 3	3


6	G#	 3	(3-1/2)				


7	F#						


8	E						


9	D			 6	5	 3	3


Notes		BEG	Bb EG	Ab DC	G C# E	FBE	FBD





OK, I can see the CMAJ7 since CEGB constructs a CMAJ7. So a 3 minor chord can substitute 


for a root MAJ7 (CMAJ7). Did I say that last sentence right?








What I don’t see are the ninth chords. Does a flatted seventh fit into a ninth chord?








A C9th construction is CEGD. The noted C9th appears to be a C flatted seventh or C7th. Is the 


C7th chord a substitute chord for a C9th chord?








A Bb9th construction is BbDFC.  Again we have a flatted seventh of Ab.





An A9th construction is AC#EB. And again we have a flatted seventh of G.





A G9th construction is GBDA. Once again we have a flatted seventh of F.





Thank you;





Sherman

[This message was edited by Sherman Willden on 13 July 2006 at 11:14 AM.]

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

Sherman, The formula for a 9th chord is
1, 3, 5, b7. and 9.

Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

Most commonly it does contain the b7, but you can also use the diatonic 7, as well. It just depends on what you want the chord to do/sound like. Anything goes, I guess. It's all context.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

You can have a ninth as an extension of the basic chord.

If it's a dom 7, you can have 9, b9 or #9 depending on the sound you want to convey. Each has a distinctive personality.

You can have a triad with 9.

You can have a minor 7th with a 9.

etc. etc.

Most of the time when someone says "9th chord" it implies the dom 7 with a regular 9th.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Sherman,

A 9th chord is comprised of the typical 1, 3, 5 and then add the 7th and 2nd to equal the 9th.
So it would like 1 3 5 7 2.
In the key of C:
The dominant chord C9 is C E G Bb D
C E G B D would be Cmaj9

c d e f g a b c
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

I hope this helps.
Marc

[This message was edited by Marc Friedland on 13 July 2006 at 12:28 PM.]

[This message was edited by Marc Friedland on 13 July 2006 at 12:30 PM.]

[This message was edited by Marc Friedland on 13 July 2006 at 12:31 PM.]

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

Anyone who knows better please give input on my interpretations here. I believe anytime the Ma7 is used in the chord, the Ma designation would follow the letter name of the chord.

1 3 5 7 9 = Ma9 chord

1 3 5 b7 9 = 9th chord (with no Ma designation, I assume a b7 is used)

1 3 5 9 = add 9 chord (I tend to think of it this way because then I know the intention is to omit the 7.)

1 3 5 b7 b9 = 7b9 chord

1 3 5 b7 #9 = 7#9 chord

1 3 5 7 b9 = Ma7b9

1 3 5 7 #9 = Ma7#9

Bob P.

David Doggett · Posted 13 Jul 2006 12:18 pm

My understanding is that once the 7th is used in a chord, the other notes are numbered above it rather than below it. So the 2 is called the 9th, and the 6 is called the 13th.

That's all well and good, but what about a 3,5,1,2, or other inversions of that same chord? What is that called? Is that just a 9th chord with the 7th left out? Or does it have it's own name? I view that as a type of suspended chord, which usually resolves to the straight tonic chord. But I have only seen the suspended term used for sus4 and sus6.

I am interested in the proper name of the 3,5,1,2 chord, not only because it is a beautiful chord, but because that is the actual tuning of a so-called E9/B6 universal. In a uni, the 7th or D string is missing. So there really is no 7th in the open string tuning. Is it still a 9th tuning?

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 July 2006 at 06:25 AM.]

Sherman Willden · From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

Thank you all. It helps. A good review

Sherman

Fred Amendola · From: Lancaster, Pa.

Sherman,
Theoretically, in chord construction, when an extended note is added, say to a dominant 7th chord, it contains all the extensions below it. In other words, the 9th chord includes the dominant 7th. The 11th chord, includes the 7th and 9th. And so on to 13th etc.

But in practice, it is more typical to see 3 and 4 note inversions containing the "most important notes." The notes that most define the extended chord.

Here's a couple examples assuming the bass player is playing a C:

A C9 chord [CEGBbD][lo to hi] could be gotten by simply playing G minor. G-Bb-D gives you the 5th, dom 7th and 9th of the C9 chord.

A C11 chord [CEGBbDF] which also subs for a C7 chord could be gotten by playing some triad of Bb major. Bb-D-F gives you the 7th, 9th, and 11th of the C11.
Notice the 3rd is missing in these 2 examples. It can be all about substitutions, especially on E9.

The major extended chords work the same way.
For C Maj7 [CEGB] you can substitute an Em triad, omitting the C.

For C Maj9 [CEGBD]you can substitute a G major triad, omitting the C and E

This is only a couple examples and hope it helps a little bit.
Fred

[This message was edited by Fred Amendola on 13 July 2006 at 03:43 PM.]

[This message was edited by Fred Amendola on 13 July 2006 at 03:45 PM.]

Mark Fasbender · Posted 13 Jul 2006 8:38 pm

David.............. add 9

Could use as MA9
or DOM9
The lack of a 7th tone makes it somewhat of a chameleon. I think it is pretty too.
I have heard those called sus 2 as well.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Add 9 = added 9th abbreviated.
Maj 9 = NATURAL seventh + ninth
Dom9 implies a flattened seventh + 9th
sus2 = 2nd note of scale voiced BELOW the root third or fifth.

At least over here that's the generally accepted terminological usage :-
Fred is so correct in his terminology.
If the language of music is supposed to be universal, then you simply can't start making up new designations just to make things easy in your particular vernacular.
C9 MUST have the seventh for it to qualify as a 9th. EOS.

[This message was edited by basilh on 14 July 2006 at 04:49 AM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jul 2006 5:48 am

Oops, I counted half-steps instead of scale notes. The 6 above a 7th is called the 13th (I corrected my post above). A b5 above a 7th would be a #11 or a b12.

Now back to my question about 2 and 9 chords without a 7th, so, Basihl, 3,5,1,2 (bottom to top) would be Add 9, even without a 7th? But 1,2,3,5 would be sus 2? Seems odd to have different names for simple inversions of the same chord. CEGA is called C6, regardless of the inversion. It is not called C13, because there is no 7th. Why wouldn't CDEG be called C2?

Now the actual chord of the so-called E9/B6 uni is (bottom to top) E G# B E F# G# B D# E F# G# (that's placing strings 1 and 2 in order in the chord). That is 1 3 5 1 9 3 5 Maj7 1 9. Seems like according to the rules above, that is E Maj7 9, or E Maj 9.

But if the top two strings were left off, so that it has no minor or major 7, it would be 1 3 5 1 2 3 5 1 3. Would that be E Add 9, or would it be E sus 2, or how about E2?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 July 2006 at 07:46 AM.]

Fred Amendola · From: Lancaster, Pa.

David,

Late Guitarist Ted Greene in his Chord Chemistry book refers to the CEGD as
Add9 or /9 (slash9).
The key is that there is no 7th.

He also calls the CGD or CDG a C2 chord. There are no 3rds in any of his examples of C2.

I can't find the CDEG anywhere, but I seem to remember that Steely Dan had a name for it, maybe mu-Minor ? but don't hold me to that ! Anyone ? It could simply be another inversion of C/9 since it has a 3rd and no 7th.

This is a great resource book, especially if you play guitar. It's still available on Amazon, Ebay, but be careful 'cause there are other non-Ted Greene books using the same name. He also has chord progression and single note books out there.
Fred

[This message was edited by Fred Amendola on 14 July 2006 at 08:28 AM.]

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

C, E, G, D and C, D, E, G
1, 3, 5, 9 and 1, 2, 3, 5

In actual practice, there's no chord symbol distinction between these two. They are

C (add 9) or
C (2) or
C2

An arranger friend of mine suggested C (2) to mean CDEG,
and C2 to mean "leave out the third" : CDG. I use this in my own notes, but it is in no way standard. An arranger has to explain or notate the voicing if he has a preference.

Ted Greene's "/9" I have never seen in actual practice.

And yes, C9 has the b7, and it doesn't matter where the "9" is in this chord symbol's voicing either, tho it's usually above the 7th, but not necessarily above the root, 3rd, or 5th.

-dean-

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

I agree with Dean (and most of what has been written here also). I'm fairly certain it is what the notes in a chord are, and not which octave they happen to occur in that matters. So the 1-2-3-5 mentioned I'd see as an add9 chord. The 2 doesn't have to be in the position above the octave to be called a 9. You're just "inverting" where the notes are located. Take out the 3rd and that changes things. Then, I'm thinking sus2. I think the 5 in there still works because that note is strongly generated as an overtone by the root anyways.

Bob P.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jul 2006 10:46 am

Okay, so I think we all agree that 2, 3, 5, 1, or any inversion of that, would generally be understood if it was called Add9, sus2, 2 or (2). But I am still puzzled by why we would call it a 9 instead of a 2, if there is no 7th present. Without a 7th, a 6th is called a 6th. Only with a 7th present is it called a 13th Why wouldn't a 2 be called a 2 in the same way? Also, if there is no 7th, a 4 is a 4, not an 11th, and a b5 is just that, not a b12. Why would not a 2 be treated in the same way? Just trying to understand the rules.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Typically, the 2 chord is notated without the 3rd, whereas the add 9 chord would include the 3rd. And I believe that 2 chord would indicate that the 2 should be played a full step above the root rather than 9 steps. Of course then one wonders when to play or not play the 3rd.

In most cases, it probably doesn't matter as someone in the band is probably playing that 3rd note anyway.

But, back to topic, a true 9th will have a b7 in it. If it is a major 9th (CM9), it has a natural 7th. The major reference only affects the 7th note, the same way a minor affects only the 3rd.

I know this may sound simple to some, but there are a lot of great pickers out there runnin on raw talent who have never gotten to first base on chord and scale theory.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

This is such fun and very enlightening, but to answer Dave's question. :

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

The 7 is a b7 unless otherwise noted (maj7). You'll never see "b7" written.

A chord is a major unless otherwise noted (Cm).

9th chords always have a 7 unless mentioned (parentheses around the "9", or "add9" or "sus 9"), and as I say, it's flat unless mentioned.

---
Cma9 = CM9 (large M... confusing, but sometimes used, please don't use it tho)= Cmaj9 = C major 9

So the "major" refers to the 7th. The majorness of the C chord itself is not mentioned, because a C major is labelled simply "C".

Cmi7 = Cm7 = Cmin7 = C-7 = C minor 7
Cmi9 = Cm9 = Cmin9 = C-9 = C minor 9

The "minor" refers to the C chord. The 7 is minor so its minorness is not mentioned.

Cm ma7 = Cmi maj7, etc, etc

The chord is minor (so minorness is mentioned), the 7 is major (so majorness is mentioned)

Cm9ma7 etc

Same as Cmi maj7, but with a 9 .
---
Ma7 and ma9 chords are often labelled with a triangle, which I can't make on the computer, but is C "triangle" or C "triangle" 7 for Cma7; C "triangle"9 for Cmaj9. Cm"triangle"9 for CmMaj9.

Hyphen can be used for "minor".

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Basil-

All true on the 13th, but the 3rd is usually between the 7 and the 13 !

I wonder why people have confusion ?

But the 13th chord with the 6 just BELOW the 7 sounds pretty nice, tho it's not the usual.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Thanks Dean.

[This message was edited by basilh on 14 July 2006 at 06:11 PM.]

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Sherman, to answer what I think was the original question, a C9 chord is at fret one, AB down, 8str or 4str lowered 1/2

5 D (A pedal)
6 Bb (B pedal)
8 E (lower 1/2 step)

(no root, but you don't need it here).

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Original question in the FIRST post lines number 12/13 -14 - and 16 of the text

quote:
1:-So a 3 minor chord can substitute
for a root MAJ7 (CMAJ7). Did I say that last sentence right?
2: Does a flatted seventh fit into a ninth chord?
3: Is the C7th chord a substitute chord for a C9th chord?

1: Yes
2: Yes
3: No but a 5m6th can.

[This message was edited by basilh on 16 July 2006 at 03:33 AM.]

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