Tempered Tuning Charts

Roger Crawford · From: Griffin, GA USA

When topics come up about tuning charts(I know they seldom do!), the bulk of the conversations seem to center around Jeff's charts and Peterson presets. Is anyone using the charts that the Emmons Guitar Co. publishes and is available on Buddy's site? I never seem to see it mentioned. It looks a little strange, but I've never tried it to see what it sounds like. Anyone out there have any thoughts?

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

It does look interesting; here's the website page:
www.buddyemmons.com/TTchart.htm

I'm going to try the C6th one first.

Thanks, Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Kagy on 28 June 2006 at 03:49 PM.]

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

I use that old Buddy Emmons E9 tuning chart all the time. Sometimes I'll take string seven up to zero, but mostly I follow that chart. All charts have compromises in them, but I find this one the easiest to get the the most pretty intervals in most positions.

Brad Sarno

Duane Reese · Posted 28 Jun 2006 7:02 pm

Whoops...

[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 28 June 2006 at 08:03 PM.]

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

I used the Emmons chart on my Sho-Bud Pro III Custom, it sounded better than the Newman chart.
On my converted Baldwin Crossover I use the Newman chart, because the Emmons chart doesn't sound as good.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

I thought I had read someplace here that Buddy Emmons tuned straight-up, except possibly flattening the G#'s. I tried this temper tuning this morning and the 1st string F# @+4cents and the pedal 3 F# @-22cents oscillations about took the pictures off the walls....

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2006 8:25 am

Uh-oh. Don't show this to Eric West. This tuning chart is very close to JI. The F# on string 7 looks like it is tuned flat of straight up to give the 6th with the A and B pedals down. In a JI scale or chord, the 6th is -16 cents from straight up. This also works fairly well when string 7 is used as the root for the IIm chord with the B and C pedals. The B pedal has already been tuned with the A pedal and can't be changed. But the B pedal A is the minor 3rd of the IIm chord, and as such needs to be 16 cents sharp of the root. So the low root on the 7th string, and the 5th and high root on the C pedal have to be tuned flat of the B pedal minor third. This all works out fairly well with this tuning chart. However, F# on string 1 seems to be kept close to straight up, to sound good as the 5th of the V chord made with strings 5, 2 and 1. It can also function straight up as the 2 or the 9 of the E scale. But the F# on string 1 and the F# on string 7 will be 19 cents apart - youch. But how often do you play those octaves together? Unfortunately, with this tuning, The F# on string 7 does not work well as the 5th of the V chord with strings 10 and 5 as roots. And it does not function well as the 2 or 9 for E scales and chords. I solve this by having the C pedal pull string 8 to F# for the low root of the IIm chord, and tune it to sound good with the high root F# on pedal C. I then tune the open 7 string F# as the 5th of the V chord to sound good with strings 10, 5, 2 and 1. This also works well for the 2 or 9 of the E scale. This doesn't work perfectly as the 6th of the IV chord with pedals A and B down, but that is a bit of a dissonant chord anyway, and it sounds okay to me.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

According to many statements from Buddy Emmons, he tunes pretty nearly straight up. If you look at the chart on Ernie's buddyemmons.com website, nowhere does it say that Buddy tunes to that chart. In fact, the chart comes from EMMONS GUITAR COMPANY. Buddy hasn't been associated with them for DECADES.

It is also listed as a 'tempered tuning chart' when, in fact, it is a non-tempered tuning chart. It's about as pure just intonation (the definition of non-tempered) as you can get.

Many people don't understand that Just Intonation (e.g., tuning by harmonics) is NOT TEMPERED. Tuning straight up to a tuner IS TEMPERED (it is EQUAL TEMPERAMENT).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2006 8:38 am

On following the links, I think Larry is right. This is the Emmons Guitar Co. tuning chart. It is very close to JI, with very little tempering. Buddy may have used such a chart years ago, but this does not seem to be what he has used in recent years.

Gary Steele · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

This Chart is quite a bit flat to jeffs chart. But it does seem to sound real good. Several people i know have tried it lately.
Gary

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

May I remind you that these are really "tampered" tunings!

Lee, from South Texas

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

Thank you Lee! It's good to feel ground under the feet every now and then.....

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

I had a little crow for supper...
I'm kinda likin' this tuning. I'm going to try this one this weekend.
Now I have about three different tampers I like.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The Emmons Guitar Company chart seems to assume a large amount of cabinet drop. Note that E is 0 and A is -7 cents.

I'd add 7 cents to everything so that the A would be in tune with the piano. Then, assuming that the drop interval on your guitar is in the 5 to 7 cent range with pedals down, it should sound pretty good.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2006 8:20 pm

But, b0b, if you have -7 cents cabinet drop and tune the pedals-down As to 440, then the pedals-up Es will be 7 cents sharp. It seems to me the better solution would be to split the difference and tune the Es 3.5 cents sharp, and the As 3.5 cents flat. Both the open E chord and the pedals-down A chord would then be withn the 5 cent rule of thumb for acceptable pitch. There is nothing magical about the As just because the reference standard is A=440. All the other pitches on the piano will also be straight up at 0 cents, including the Es. Therefore, I don't see the point in tuning either the As or the Es to 0 cents and letting the other absorb the whole cabinet drop problem. Why not spit the difference and keep both of them as close to acceptable as possible?

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

David,
I'm sure you've followed Paul Franklin's rationale for an E relative to A442: The 'that's how the piano is tuned in the studio in the same range as the pedal steel' explanation. Many also contend that, since their guitar exhibits 4-8 cents cab drop with A+B down, 442 is a good number for the E's with pedals up and 440 for A with pedals down.

Bottom line for me, I agree with b0b that adding about 7 or 8 cents to the whole chart is pretty acceptable and pretty close to what I already do (that's how I know it's acceptable)

I STILL wouldn't tune the F's that flat but most of the rest would be ok. I'd compensate the F#'s too.

Steve/Lee
I'll remind you that the Emmons chart isn't really very tampered at all. It is pretty close to just intonation which is not tempered or tampered. Tuning straight up to a tuner is tempered according to a mathematical model: evenly splitting the scale into 12 segments.

What I actually do is closer to cutting the difference between ET and JI in half. Works for me but everyone is entitled to his own take on this one. Tuning is a very personal decision. I would never tune like xxx just because I like his playing. I recommend tuning to whatever convention sounds the best to your ears.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Larry - As you may recall from this thread, you and I tune just about the same way. I don't have any compensators on the F#'s (yet). It's not ET and it's not JI, so I call it tampered.

Lee

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sorry Lee
I thought you were referring to the Emmons chart in the Topic Title as 'tampered'. It really is neither tempered nor tampered.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Dont forget that "straight up" is indeed "out of tune", musically speaking. Straight up or ET (equal temperament) is an across the board comprimise so that everything is equally out of tune no matter the key, but "straight up" is harmonically, mathematically and musically out of tune nonetheless.

I know this topic has been hammered to death, but I keep hearing people refer to ET as somehow "in tune" and other temperaments as out of tune or weird. Nature created the major third interval (and all the others) out of naturally occuring harmonic ratios, and the ET or straight up major third is just not musical. I know our ears have adapted to the piano and the ET that rules in western music, but steel give us an opportunity to play real intervals some of the time.

I don't know if anyone claimed that Buddy uses the "Emmons" chart. But it sure sounds perty on most intervals I run into. And I do think that the chart takes into consideration some typical cabinet drop issues. For my very basic steel playing, it sure lets me play some pretty intervals in the open, AB pedal , AF combo, and Eb lever positions. And when you get to those intervals that are a bit off, it seems that the brain automatically slants the bar a tiny bit to compensate.

Brad

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've seen players that sound beautifully in tune until they go to the open strings. I balance mine so that the E and B are sharp of the 400 reference, the A is at 440, and the G# and C# are flat of the 440 reference.

This works pretty well for the pedals up and pedals down positions on open strings. Check out this song where I play a background pad using 12th and 7th fret harmonics (open strings). My A's are at 0 and my E's and B's are at +5 cents.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

David Doggett · Posted 30 Jun 2006 1:26 pm

Right, Larry. I was ignoring stretch tuning in my example. In reality, I don't split my cabinet drop around A=440, but around A=441. So my Es end up 4 cents sharp of that (as if A=442), and my As end up 4 cents flat of that at A=440. That is similar to what b0b does. Funny that we all get to about the same place, but explain it a little different.

Brad, thanks for explaining the meaning of tempered and JI and ET so clearly. It always helps when we keep our terminolgy straight.

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

Pretty much where I am now b0b... seems to be best balance with overall band tunings too. Putting A at 440 just seems to make a lot sense, especially if your working with keyboards.

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

nice song b+5b.

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