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Topic: Watch out for this string popper! |
Curt Langston
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 1:12 pm |
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Look how far the 3rd string tuner is out from the nut. Has to be at least 4 1/2 inches!
It's on the 'bay now.[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 26 June 2006 at 02:13 PM.] |
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C. Christofferson
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 1:41 pm
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| Be sure and wear your safety glasses while playing. Looks like a good candidiate for keyless/// |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 1:45 pm
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| Curt, most older "long keyhead" guitars have exactly the same characteristics. This keyhead was designed (as most of them used to be) so that it could be used on both 10 and 12-string guitars. |
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Ron !
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 4:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| most older "long keyhead" guitars have exactly the same characteristics |
Might I add that most strings pop at the changer and not at the keyhead.I had one of these keyheads and of course strings popped at the keyhead but most did at the changer side.
Not every steel pops strings when it uses a keyhead like that.
Ron
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Karen Kaylee Records
KRS D-10 10x8, KRS SD10 4x6 EMMONS P/P S10 3x5 Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Ultra 15" Peavey All Tube 15"
Fender Twin Reverb Hilton Volumepedal
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 4:22 pm
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| Actually, if i'm not mistaken, that is a BMI (also known of as an Erickson in the Great Lakes region) and I have a 10 and a 12 string like that at the shop and neither of them have shown the tendency to break strings any more than any other brand. |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 7:29 pm
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| Are you plugging keyless again? |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Jun 2006 7:58 pm
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The pitch of a string is determined by three factors: the nut-to-bridge length, the gauge, and the tension between the nut and bridge. The length of string behind the nut has no effect whatsoever on the tension required to get a given pitch. The extra stretch provided by the extra length behind the nut merely means the key will have to be turned slightly further to reach the desired tension and pitch. Also, the throw of a raise pedal or lever will be a little longer, because it has to stretch both the length between the bridge and nut as well as the length behind the nut. But the final tension of the raised string will be the same - if it weren't there would be a different pitch. And at any rate the 3rd string is only longer by the distance between two adjacent key posts - no big deal. Compared to a standard 10-string, all the strings on a 12 string starting with string 6 have longer throws. Do they break more often? No.
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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 1:12 am
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Curt, whats the point ?
again....
I have owned a dozen or more Steels, none had a key head like that one..which was designed to be used with a 12 or 10..
this is really getting old..
It was fun a month ago..
I think everyone here knows you LOVE Keyless and feel that all KEY HEAD Guitars are useless..
Problem is clear to me..
I've watched Buddy, Loyd, Paul, Tommy, Doug, etc etc etc play there specific Steels for multiple decades now. If they thought guitars with Key heads were a problem I am certain they would have told us, and changed.
Those guys have clout....
give it up buddy...
t |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 1:54 am
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I really can't think of a single string that I have broken at the nut or tuning machines. Just another plug for keyless and man it's gettin' to be old hat. I have a Williams keyless that breaks strings if left on too long. Not a valid argument at best. Give it up.
Phred
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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 4:22 am
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| Quote: |
| "I really can't think of a single string that I have broken at the nut or tuning machines." |
Same for me.
If you are breaking strings at the nut, you probably have a seized roller, or a burr on the peg. |
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Curt Langston
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 5:53 am
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Actually Curt, that long distance will help minimize string breakage but more importantly it actually helps in the strings returning on the money.
I know this for a fact from playing that old Rus-ler for 18 years. It had a key head so long I had to get a bus pass to tune the 5th & 6th strings but stayed in tune better than any other PSG I ever owned and almost never broke a string.
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Fred Justice,
Fred's Music www.fredjusticemusic.com
Rains Steel Guitars
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 7:28 am
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| Quote: |
| So, let me see if I get this right. The 3rd string has to stretch farther to get up to pitch, yet does not contribute to string breakage? |
Yes, the extra string length behind the nut requires extra twist of the key, and extra throw for the pedals and levers (for all of the strings on this guitar, not just the 3rd) to acheive the same tension between the bridge and nut. But that extra throw is absorbed by the extra stretch provided by the extra string length behind the nut. So that extra length is both the reason for the extra pull, and the reason the tension remains the same (over the whole string on both sides of the nut, unless the roller binds). The longer string requires more stretch to come up to tension, but the extra length absorbs that extra stretch. The tension over the whole string is the same on this guitar as on any guitar with the same bridge-to-nut length, with the same gauge string, tuned to the same pitch. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand the physics involved. Ask Ed Packer. If the tension is different, the pitch will be different. If the pitch is the same, the tension will be the same. That is simple physics. Study it.  |
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C. Christofferson
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 11:04 am
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One 'advantage' of a head over keyless (has this been mentioned in another thread) is the ability to 'roll up' a lot of string length around the pin so when the string breaks at the changer, more string can be 'fishlined' out saving having to buy a new one several times over. Savings of a whopping $3-$4....Not to mention the possibility of strumming across those strings behind the nut for the sound effect.
(This doesn't mean i wouldn't choose keyless)
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Curt Langston
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 11:10 am
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| Quote: |
| The tension over the whole string is the same on this guitar as on any guitar with the same bridge-to-nut length, with the same gauge string, tuned to the same pitch. |
My point is this:
The longer the total string length, (from changer to tuning device) = the greater tension required to bring it up to pitch.
The greater the tension, the more string breakage.
This is why most keyed guitars max out at a 24 1/4 scale. And also why the Emmons short keyhead is not as hard on the 3rd string G#.
This has been thoroughly explained by Ed, in previous posts.
This is not so much physics, as it is common sense.
[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 12:12 PM.] |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 11:38 am
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| Quote: |
| The 3rd string has to stretch farther to get up to pitch, yet does not contribute to string breakage? |
The important number is stress per unit length. Ed agrees. And if so ...
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| ... that long distance will help minimize string breakage but more importantly it actually helps in the strings returning on the money. |
Very interesting.
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 12:30 pm
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If there were inherent problems with this style of keyhead, wouldn't owners of MSA clasic guitars be complaining about it? I never noticed it to be a problem with the MSA that I owned.
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Kenny Brown
From:
Auburn, Alabama, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 1:17 pm
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for an instrument(pedal steel guitar) to be as young as it is, I imagine a lot more could be changed about it regardless of the incredible quality there is out there regarding the issue in this thread, cabinet drop, or any of the other laws of physics out there.
it's a good thing everyone has their own opinion. this forum would be pretty boring otherwise!
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 1:53 pm
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Sorry, Curt, you're flat wrong. For a string of a given length (bridge-to-nut) and gauge, you cannot increase the tension without increasing the pitch. Period. That means when you tune two strings of the same bridge-to-nut length and gauge to the same pitch, their tensions will be the same. It doesn't matter if one string is nailed to the nut, and the other has two feet behind the nut. You are confusing distance the string has to be pulled with tension. Yes, the string with more length behind the nut will take a longer pull to stretch it and get it up to tension. But the tension between the bridge and the nut will be the same, if the pitch is the same. Or maybe you are confusing "work" with tension. Work is equal to distance times force. So if the distance is longer, and the force is the same (?), maybe it takes more work to pull the longer string up to tension. You have to stretch more string, maybe that takes more work. On the other hand, the stretch is spread over more string, so maybe it doesn't take more work.
Can somebody help us out of this impass with some authority? This seems so simple and common sense, it is hard to imagine how someone could not see this.
I'm also not sure I agree with Ed that a longer string helps with the breakage. The longer stretchable length behind the nut would seem to cushion the pull, at least at the keyhead end. But if the tension is the same at the changer (as it must be to get the same pitch), which is where the breakage almost always occurs, then it's all a wash, and breakage is the same. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 2:08 pm
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Ok David,
I'll let Michael Johnstone try to explain it to you.
quote:
Michael Johnstone
Member
From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
posted 03 December 2002 10:21 AM profile send email edit
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The strings are easier to change - and just about all keyless guitars are something like this - you just hook the string on at the changer end and bring the other end up and wrap it around a small allen head bolt about 1/2 wrap,tighten down the bolt,bend the excess string back and forth a couple times to break it off and the string is on. Then you tune up the string either with the same allen key you used to tighten down the bolt or like on my Sierra and also GFIs work like this - you can tune the string with your fingers using little knurled buttons which look like the fine tuners on a violin. If I break a string onstage,I can have a new one on and be playing again within a verse and a chorus.As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.Conversely on a keyless design,say on a 25" scale,the section of string under tension is only 25" in total. So there is actually more tension on most of the strings on a keyed 24.5" guitar than all the strings of a keyless 25" guitar. Less tension means less string breakage and a shorter pedal pull/string stretch to achieve a given pitch change - so strings last longer and don't break nearly as much.Plus all the strings are the same length with no overhang past the roller nut which translates into zero unwanted overtones that many keyed guitars display and most guys damp out with foam rubber or plastic tubing.Not to mention that harmonics are easier to get,high register stuff is easier to play in tune and the tone is just fundamentally more pure and phat.Lightweight - compact - stays in tune for months - you can't knock it out of tune just by taking it out of the case - it's just a better design from every angle you want to talk about. C'mon guys - On with the future!
-MJ-
Read this part again. Slowly.
| Quote: |
| As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar. |
quote:
Can somebody help us out of this impass with some authority? This seems so simple and common sense, it is hard to imagine how someone could not see this.
My sentiments exactly.
BTW, Crow is tastier baked with seasoned salt!
[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 03:14 PM.] |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 2:21 pm
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 [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 03:21 PM.] |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 2:32 pm
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Curt,
Have you checked out anafranil recently ?
Many steel players that used to be controlled by there obsessions with obscure pointless details are now leading healthy productive musical lives !
In other words... lighten up fella ! The keyhead thing you are stuck on is making you seem like a real nut.
Bob |
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Rick Batey
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 2:38 pm
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“Some authority”.. well, I’m here to learn about steel guitars, not pass information, but I’m a trained violin maker and fretted guitar maker, and my two penn’orth (English two cents) is this...
David is exactly, precisely right.
And I couldn’t summarize the situation better than he already has above, but just for the heck of it... tension on a guitar string is a matter of three things, and three things only: 1) nut/bridge distance; 2) string mass per unit length (gauge for short, though manufacturers differ on wound strings, but no need to get into that) and 3) pitch.
Yes, you could indeed build an experimental plank guitar with an extended peghead and two spring tension gauges hanging off the bridge, with two E strings tuned to E, one tuner close to the nut, one tuner three feet further away.. and the gauges would read exactly the same.
Michael J surely has a lifetime of great experience but I can only surmise that, unless I misunderstand him, the effect he implies is a result of some fine point of PSG design that I am unfamiliar with, perhaps the low string breakage effect of having two smooth rollers at each string’s end rather than having a nut and a sharp-cornered regular tuner post at one end - which can be, as we all know, a weak point for string breakage on any guitar.
Rick |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 27 Jun 2006 3:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| I’m here to learn about steel guitars, not pass information, but I’m a trained violin maker and fretted guitar maker, and my two penn’orth (English two cents) is this... |
Thats cool Rick. One thing to remember is: a violin or fretted guitar does not have a pulling device (changer) to pull strings up to pitch.
And we are talking about the 3rd string G#'s tension and breaking points.
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