| Author |
Topic: Music theory question |
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:02 am |
|
If a 2nd is the same as a 9th, then is a #9 the same or equal to a flatted 3rd?
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
|
|
 |
Chris Tarrow
From:
Maplewood, NJ
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:05 am
|
|
same note, but different functions.
If you see Cminor7, that's made up of 1,b3,5,b7 or C,Eb,G,Bb
If you see C7#9, that's made up of 1,3,5,b7, #9 or C,E,G,Bb,D#
Eb and D# are the same pitch, but these are very different chords.
Hope that helps. |
|
|
|
Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:05 am
|
|
It would be the same note but used differently.
Fred |
|
|
|
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:12 am
|
|
Thanks guys
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
|
|
|
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:39 am
|
|
| Same note???? flat 3 = sharp 2 ? or am I missing something? |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 12:15 pm
|
|
| Chris wouldn’t the voicing lose the E in your example to avoid the minor 2nd dissonance?, ie C G Bb D# |
|
|
|
Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 12:40 pm
|
|
Bill, If they’re not in the same octave they won’t be dissonant. E up to a D# is a major 7th interval. Or less common, D# up an octave and a half step to E.
Fred |
|
|
|
Matthew Walton
From:
Fort Worth, Texas
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 12:42 pm
|
|
I don't think you'd want to do that Bill; if you lose the E it just sounds like a min7 chord (The C G Bb D# inversion mentioned would be fingered on guitar, from 6th string to 1st string, x3534x). You just have to voice/invert the chord such that the E and D# are not creating a minor 2nd, unless you're into that sort of thing.
Even a Maj7 chord could contain a minor 2nd if you place the 1 and 7 right next to each other (finger x2x140 from 6th to 1st string on guitar for an EMaj7/B with this property).
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112 |
|
|
|
Chris Tarrow
From:
Maplewood, NJ
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 12:42 pm
|
|
@Bill McCloskey no, that's kind of the best thing about it. Without that rub we would not have Hendrix's Purple Haze!
@Sonny Jenkins yes the b3 and the #9 of a chord are the same tone. But they can have different functions depending on how the chord is written and/or voiced.
If it's written as a 9th, flat 9th, or sharp 9th, it does not replace the 3rd of the chord. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 1:58 pm
|
|
A second is not the same as a ninth. That is why they have different names. They are an octave apart.
Also, "dissonance" is a word to avoid as ideas change over time. Simultaneous flat and natural thirds were acceptable in 15th c. church music, and what's dissonant in country music might be fine in jazz.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 3:50 pm 7th not a 9th
|
|
In the key of C, The 7Th is just before the octave hits the second C, which is the 8th note, hence the 9th note is a D something or other,,,,
_________________
Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 8:54 pm
|
|
Quite so.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 9:58 pm
|
|
| I am supposing that every time I see #9 I need to presuppose a flatted 7th then followed by a #9 with no need to call it a #9th. Is there such a chord as a #9 w/o a 7bb or izzat a major/minor? |
|
|
|
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2019 11:04 pm
|
|
E#9 is the Hendrix chord , where it has a G# and a G natural in it making the chord both major and minor.
What I was asking about in my original question was more along the lines of interval relationships not necessarily chords.I just wanted to know if a 2nd in key of E was F# then the 9th (also an F# in another octave)is the same tone
ie. G notes. basically a half step raise from the 2nd be called a #9,or a flat 3rd/minor 3rd?
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 12:28 am
|
|
Dana, now I get where you're coming from. That E7 chord with a major 3rd and what sounds like a flat 10th (although by convention it's called a sharp 9th) is common as an unresolved dominant seventh in all sorts of jazz and blues. It's the major seventh between the two Gs that creates the tension within, especially if you pull up to the top note.
If you flatten the 3rd to a G natural, you have an E minor chord whatever extra toppings you choose to put on it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 1:13 am presupposing
|
|
Jim, you lost me. How do you know when to suppose as opposed to presuppose? Mostly I'm just surprised. When I play songs like that I start by being pre surprised. I find the best way to deal with those wierd notes is with a sharpy (no pun intended) or whiteout. If I do play them, they are accidentals or more precisely accidents.
_________________
MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
|
|
|
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 2:19 am
|
|
Thanks guys I got my questioned answered. 
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
|
|
|
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 2:44 am
|
|
So why is the chord called “G7†when the “F†note is really a b7 in the key of G?
Wouldn’t you call that a “Gb7†chord? |
|
|
|
David Donn
From:
New South Wales, Australia
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 3:42 am
|
|
| Frank Freniere wrote: |
So why is the chord called “G7†when the “F†note is really a b7 in the key of G?
Wouldn’t you call that a “Gb7†chord? |
It's just shorthand. The b7 is the most famous 7 chord so we just say "7" and everyone knows what we mean, the same as when we refer to Elvis Presley we can just say "Elvis" and everyone knows who we mean. |
|
|
|
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 4:00 am
|
|
| David Donn wrote: |
It's just shorthand. The b7 is the most famous 7 chord so we just say "7" and everyone knows what we mean, the same as when we refer to Elvis Presley we can just say "Elvis" and everyone knows who we mean. |
I get that it's shorthand. I'm just curious what the proper/correct name for that chord is, kinda like "Elvis Aron Presley." |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 4:12 am
|
|
| Frank Freniere wrote: |
| Wouldn’t you call that a “Gb7†chord? |
Here we encounter the problem of notation: is that a G-flat or a flat seventh? |
|
|
|
Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 4:29 am
|
|
| Frank Freniere wrote: |
| David Donn wrote: |
It's just shorthand. The b7 is the most famous 7 chord so we just say "7" and everyone knows what we mean, the same as when we refer to Elvis Presley we can just say "Elvis" and everyone knows who we mean. |
I get that it's shorthand. I'm just curious what the proper/correct name for that chord is, kinda like "Elvis Aron Presley." |
The proper name is G7. The 7th tone is flatted. If the the seventh tone isn’t flatted it is Gmaj7. Similarly, if there are extentions, eg. G9, the seventh is flatted. The seventh is always flatted except when you see “maj†or the triangle symbol, Gmaj9.
Fred |
|
|
|
David Donn
From:
New South Wales, Australia
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 4:49 am
|
|
| Frank Freniere wrote: |
| David Donn wrote: |
It's just shorthand. The b7 is the most famous 7 chord so we just say "7" and everyone knows what we mean, the same as when we refer to Elvis Presley we can just say "Elvis" and everyone knows who we mean. |
I get that it's shorthand. I'm just curious what the proper/correct name for that chord is, kinda like "Elvis Aron Presley." |
Perhaps the word you are looking for is "dominant". In chord theory you would call it "G dominant 7th". In practice, just G7. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 5:04 am
|
|
| Dana Blodgett wrote: |
| Thanks guys I got my questioned answered. |
That doesn't mean it'll all stop now, Dana 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2019 3:40 pm
|
|
I understand that the way to refer to 3rds are major or minor not flatted 3rds as I was calling them.
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
|
|
|
