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Topic: Sho Bud.....how to spot pot metal parts? |
Charley Paul
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 10:03 am |
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Forgive what may be a stupid question....
I’m new to psg, and am really intrigued by Sho Bud guitars. Which years/models were built with the pot metal parts everybody dislikes? How do i spot them on a guitar?
I’m considering a Sho Bud and am trying to understand better what I’m gettin myself into. Ideally I would like to buy one that’s already restored. I see that a lot of people clean up the parts and put them back together, so they look real nice.
However, I’m still not sure my eye is trained enough to see the details about which parts are pot metal and which are not...
Thanks! |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 10:22 am
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If you see a Sho~Bud with fat bellcranks and sort of a clip to hold the pull rods in place, that's a pot metal guitar.
Erv |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 10:39 am
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If it's got these two-hole swivel bellcranks then you are ok (there is pot metal in the changer but it is not an issue).
If it's got these bellcranks on a hex shaft, we're looking at pot metal. It is mainly the brackets, not shown, where the breakage occurs (at least the breaks that I've seen--not sure if the bellcranks themselves break too).
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Brian Hollands
From:
Geneva, FL USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 11:11 am
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Actually those hex shaft bell cranks pictured are aluminum. If they have 9 or 12 holes they are replacements. The pot metal ones will have 5 holes. There are 5 hole aluminum replacements. It's not 100% reliable but IME you can often see pits or casting marks on pot metal parts. Aluminum won't have that.
I think the key thing to look for would be any evidence of a hairline crack on one of these parts, particularly the knee lever brackets.
You wouldn't likely see any of that in pictures - you'd have to have the guitar in front of you.
The guitars with hex shafts have the pot metal parts. I think that started in '76.
_________________
'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's
Last edited by Brian Hollands on 4 Mar 2019 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 11:12 am
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Let me add--the two-hole swivel cranks came after the rack & barrel. Those are free of pot metal as well.
There are some transitional builds that mixed and matched elements but in their fully developed form, the gumby headstock and curved levers would be pre-pot metal brackets.
Straight levers and straight headstock are fully transitioned Super Pro models where pot metal reigned supreme. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 11:15 am
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| Brian Hollands wrote: |
| Actually those hex shaft bell cranks pictured are aluminum. |
My bad. I was looking for an example and without thinking I pulled up some Michael Yahl parts which of course are aluminum. That sucks (of me). Sorry. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 11:24 am
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I had a pot metal Pro III at one time and I broke two knee lever brackets just taking it out of the case. 
Erv |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 11:48 am
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Now, Erv, you should know better than to lift it out of the case by the knee levers!  |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 11:52 am
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They were handy!
Erv |
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Jack Turlington
From:
Toccoa, GA, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 12:32 pm
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| So, the old Professionals and 6139’s are ok? |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 2:18 pm
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| Jack Turlington wrote: |
| So, the old Professionals and 6139’s are ok? |
For the most part yes, but with Sho Bud you never know for certain.. they had a couple of parts transitions and I have seen models with some pot metal parts and some "good" parts..
Not only that, a LOT of Buds have had pedal/levers,pulls, added on over the years, and I have seen some "add on" Super Pro parts on earlier guitars If a guitar was built around the time bud switched from 2 hole pullers to Super Pro parts, I am sure they used up all the old stock.. However, if your guitar has curved levers, 2 hole pullers all around, there is PROBABLY no pot metal.. However you never know.. My ProIII had curved levers, and 2 hole pullers mostly, but pot metal changer fingers on the 2/2 changer, pot metal endplates as well, and an odd pot metal part here and there in the system, from the factory.. they used up what parts they had as most all musical instrument manufacturers do. Nowadays guys use the best stuff they can get for Buds, and most modern stuff is good. 25 years ago, guys were fixing Buds as well, and used what bud parts were available... Some of that stuff was pot metal, and at times made it on to non pot medal buds......bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 2:39 pm
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Jack, Bob is spot on. I can assure you, however, there is no pot metal on your 6139. Not that I am particularly pot metal averse: my Super Pro has plenty.
For an example of the mix-n-match metals under a Sho Bud, I wonder whether the bracket for the half-stop mechanism in the picture Jon Light posted above isn't a later pot metal part lurking amidst older aluminum. Sure looks like a Super Pro era bracket in a sea of Professional era linkage. (Of course, the half-stop parts might have been added much later.)
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Kevin Mincke
From:
Farmington, MN (Twin Cities-South Metro) USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 5:23 pm
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Pot metal is cast and aluminum are machined. Pot metal breaks frequently, machined not so much.
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 5:37 pm
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All shobud with hex crossbars and straight knee levers, have pot metal all over the place. Round crossbars and curved knee levers and racks do not have pot metal except maybe finger Tops on the later round crossbars shobuds, there you go.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2019 9:05 pm
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| Jack Turlington wrote: |
| So, the old Professionals and 6139’s are ok? |
Yes, unless some were added after the fact, which happens but is not real common.. Those weren't transitional buds..
My ProIII was a transition guitar and had a very distinct mix of pot metal, and stamped/machined Sho bud parts,including a few spring loaded adjustable brass barrels... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 12:37 am
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easier than that, if your Sho Bud is a factory 5 hole Bell Crank guitar, it is a Pot Metal build.
Pre 5 hole Bell crank systems are not an issue. As you can see by the photo's the latest SB versions with pot metal are not even close in design to the previews TWO HOLE Pullers or Professionals. Just view the 5 hole pullers and your question is answered.
The good news is the 5 hole puller /bracket design is excellent, the bad news is the material the parts are made of is lacking.
Here is a Super Pro with Pot Metal K lever brackets and 5 hole Bell cranks
Here is a late 70's Pro I, same pull system and parts. Great guitar if you can get past the parts !
Regarding the Bell cranks, I had two with hairline cracks which caused immense tuning issues until I dug deep and found them. RED ARROW
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 5 Mar 2019 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 4:18 am
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Nice photos Tony... The SP design was a good playing design, and the exact same parts made with machined aluminum would have been great..The Super pro system was the smoothest, softest,quietest system Sho Bud ever made .. It was also the weakest.. I have owned a few Super Pro era guitars, and although I seem to recall only breaking one knee bracket, every one of the holes that was in a bellcrank or any other pot metal part that touched steel was egg shaped, with black residue on it... I used to lube those little contact zones, but once the chrome wore off, it was all over.. I myself never had a crack in a pot metal bellcrank, but had lots of tiny little egg shape holes that annoyed the hell out of me... I also wore through a couple of knee lever reverser parts if I am remembering correctly..
I would love to sit down and play a Super pro thats been totally restored with new aluminun parts,,, Probably play as well as any pedal steel ever made... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 4:52 am
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I agree Bob, the Super Pro, with quality parts would have gone down in history as one of the best all pull Steels every made. I loved mine when I had it , well, not the Pot Metal parts. 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 5:14 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| I agree Bob, the Super Pro, with quality parts would have gone down in history as one of the best all pull Steels every made. I loved mine when I had it , well, not the Pot Metal parts. |
Indeed,... hindsight is 20/20 of course, but they should have made all those parts from machined or stamped material, and then set them into a couple of extruded aluminum frame rails fastened to the front and rear aprons of the guitar.. It would have been bulletproof, albeit a bit more expensive... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 6:07 am
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| My 1980's Sho-Bud had a pot metal casting that supported the roller nuts and axle. That casting sounded like plastic when you tapped on it and it had a very low material density. I kept it for two months then sold it after various parts of the guitar broke off. The sustain was a lot like a banjo! |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 7:35 am
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I broke 1 vertical bracket and 2 LKL brackets. I blame the LKL breakage to the fact that the cross shaft went straight across from front to back. Your leg moves in an arc from right to left, meaning you're hitting that lever/bracket at an angle, placing a lot of stress on the bracket. If you notice, the cross shafts on the old Buds on the LKL levers were installed at an angle, even though they were not pot metal guitars. That meant your knee was hitting the lever straight on instead of at an angle. The pot metal bracket was just not strong enough. If the cross shaft on my Super Pro was at an angle, I may not have broken the brackets that I did. Of course, some break the brackets on other levers too that are not hit at an angle.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jack Turlington
From:
Toccoa, GA, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2019 9:13 am
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Thanks guys! This wasn’t my original post but I’m learning a ton of interesting and useful information from these posts. I’ve been playing since the 70’s but just didn’t spend that much time on the mechanics.
I had a square front LDG that I gigged with for several years but I was never impressed with the tone. Now I wonder if it had pot metal under the rollers like Greg C talked about. When I needed the money, that’s the guitar that I sold in favor of keeping my old Professional that I still have. I Played it this weekend. I hadn’t broken any parts on the LDG, and had been playing 5 nights per week for four years, but the tone just wasn’t there. I guess they were trying to save money on manufacturing or just didn’t realize how weak some of the parts were. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 6 Mar 2019 6:26 am
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| Jack Turlington wrote: |
Thanks guys! This wasn’t my original post but I’m learning a ton of interesting and useful information from these posts. I’ve been playing since the 70’s but just didn’t spend that much time on the mechanics.
I had a square front LDG that I gigged with for several years but I was never impressed with the tone. Now I wonder if it had pot metal under the rollers like Greg C talked about. When I needed the money, that’s the guitar that I sold in favor of keeping my old Professional that I still have. I Played it this weekend. I hadn’t broken any parts on the LDG, and had been playing 5 nights per week for four years, but the tone just wasn’t there. I guess they were trying to save money on manufacturing or just didn’t realize how weak some of the parts were. |
Saving money was probably one factor. But I also think that weight reduction was a factor. Also the pot metal undercarriage was easier to work on (at least for me).
I also had a rack and barrel Bud and agree that the tone was much better than my Super-Pro. If memory serves me correctly, weren't the older Buds thicker wood? Compared to my Professional, the Super-Pro was like lifting a helium balloon instead of a lead block.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 6 Mar 2019 6:45 am
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A few years ago someone brought in a Super Pro D-10 he had recently bought for some work. It was a mess but it was an easy job.
Bellcranks were loose on the shafts and a dozen changes had a ton of slop in them that needed various fixes ( changing bellcrank holes, moving lever stops, etc. I tightened things up, and took out slop and had it playing much more precisely and staying in tune. I was pleased with the transformation.
He took it home and in two days he broke a bracket. I am convinced that the slop in the pull train protected the parts from shock. As soon as things were connecting precisely and hitting their stops as intended, maybe for the first time in years, bam, the weakest link let go.
I felt bad for the guy. If I find myself in the same position again, I suppose I'd need to warn the owner of this possibility. I can't imagine leaving well enough alone (because 'well enough' isn't very well at all, in this case) but I don't want the guy coming in for a tune up and leaving needing lots of new parts. |
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