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Topic: multiple raises/lowers on a Fender 400 |
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2006 10:16 pm |
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Well, I got most of the underside "rigging" done - cales hooked up, knee levers installed, changer installed etc.
But now a puzzle that hadn't come up in discussions with my parts suppliers. I'm sort of surprised, since they knew what copedent was being used.
Situation: the first stringis lowered from D3 to D by pedal 6....but also now needs to lower from D# to C# via the LKL.
One the 4th string, pedal one raises from F# to G#; The RKL is supposed to raise from F# to A.
This is Sneaky's setup for the knees. I kno some people have done it - but I don't know how to make it work. Knee lever stops wouldn't work, since in each case the knee makes the larger change.
Is there some simple method of stopping the pedal cable assembly at a certain point that doesn't affect the knee lever assembly?
I'm puzzling over this one. I *know* there's a way to do it, I just don't have the knowledge.
Ideas/pictures welcomed. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 6:23 am
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^^bump^^
A couple ideas using loops on both the raise and lower fingers have come up, but I wonder if there are any other ideas? The raise/lower loop combination would only work if one of the loops was free - but on each pedal in question, each loop is used on a different string, so it looks like that type of system won't work.
The actual copedent is on the forum - it's Sneaky's with the 9th string changes ommitted.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 March 2006 at 06:31 AM.] |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 8:32 am
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I thought about this too. I haven't been able to set up my guitars yet because they are being refinished. I thought about putting a threaded extension on the hoops and making a plate with holes and screw stops, or just drilling holes in the end plate under the existing screw stops. It can work if the original changer stops have the longest pulls on them.
My guitar already has been drillied in various places so I'm not concerned about modifying the body.
Dave[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 15 March 2006 at 08:52 AM.] |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 8:43 am
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I was wondering about this as well when I was looking at your Knee Lever thread. Let me know when you figure it out.  |
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Steve Zinno
From:
Spring City, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 10:55 am
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| Jim, do you think it would be possible to create the stops for the pedals instead? I'm thinking of the pullers at the top where the cables and pedal rods connect. Tune that one to the short throw, and the changer stops to the longer throw. I don't have one in front of me at the moment, but there might be something there you can work with. |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 1:32 pm
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Jim,
How about setting the knee for the full step lower and pedal 2 for the 1/2 step raise. Then connect pedal 6 to the raise and the lower and it should lower it a whole step and bring it back a 1/2 step to D on pedal 6.
It is the same concept when you pedal with two feet.
Russ[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 15 March 2006 at 01:36 PM.] |
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ebb
From:
nj
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 3:53 pm
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Putting stops on the pedals won't work as the cables are somewhat inconsistent in their length, due to temperature etc.
BUT
Here's the workaround to allow double flattening or sharpening on a "1000"
NOT cables on the knee lever just rods with loops and the old Sho-Bud halfstop barrell.
and
Baz
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| Steel players do it without fretting |
 
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 4:29 pm
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Unfortunately I wouldn't know a Shobud half-stop part if it bit me, nor where to find one or how to hook it up, so I think it'll have to be more basic than that - if not, it's going to sit for quite a while until I can afford to have somebody build or install those things.
Russ - I really want to keep the changes where they are rather than reverse the pedals/knees. Hopefully.
Steve's thought about a pedal stop is what I was thinking (it must be what Basil's thing is as well). I do have some short cylinders with holes thru the diameter that a cable could run through, and a screw on top to set them - If I put those on the pedal cables and set them where they smack into some sort of bracket/stop at a predetermined (but adjustable) point, maybe that would work? Is that the general idea of the Shobud thing?
Another thought is setting the knee change, and then adjusting the pedal's pull using a combination of the turnbuckle and rod adjustments. I *might* be able to limit the pull there by loosening things at the turnbuckle and resetting the pedal height via the rod, which wouldn't affect the knee lever pull at all. I seem to recall reading a note on that method somewhere...and it would certainly be the simplest solution.
Comments? Remember this is a vintage mechanism and pull system, and no matter what it's not going to be as deadly accurate as modern high-tech steels (I get a kick out of the tuning debates - sheesh, we Fender guys are happy to see a tuner needle point somewhat straight up at all...).[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 March 2006 at 04:30 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 5:00 pm
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Simple, just have an adjustable knee-lever stop, and tune the knee lever from there, and then tune the floor pedal at the endplate. (the old k.i.s.s. principle)
This would function in the same way as the old "barrel tuners" used on Sho~Buds and Emmons' guitars for decades. When you can't tune at the endplate or the keys, tune somewhere else! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 5:04 pm
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| Donny - the problem is, though, that the knee lever has to pull *farther* than the pedal....so that idea doesn't work, unless you can set the pedal for a shorter pull (it would if the knee lever stop was for a lesser pull than the pedal). Which is what I'm thinking MAY be possible using the turnbuckle and basically slacking the pedal cable off a bunch. |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 5:17 pm
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Jim,
I think you missed my point. On string 4 set the RKL to raise a step and a 1/2 or (+++)F# to A. Set pedal 5 to lower a 1/2 step (-)F# to F. Now hook pedal 1 on the raise and the lower. Pedal 1 will be raised a step and a 1/2 (+++)F# to A but the lower will be dropping a 1/2 step (-)A to G# so what you get is a full step raise (++) F# to G#.
My other example was for string 1, one raise and two lowers.
Test this by raising F# to G# on string 4 with pedal 1 then push pedal 5 down while holding pedal 1 down. It should lower the raise by the 1/2 step to G.
I believe it's on the forum some place.
All the best,
Russ
[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 15 March 2006 at 08:03 PM.] |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 7:45 pm
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i would be very wary of the 4th string split as it is such an important/basic move and the split is very sensitive to string guage/wound vs plain etc since there is no way to fine tune the split. the rkr pedal in sneaky's tuning is the equivalent of the pete drake version of the a pedal f lever inversion http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007456.html and is available with the 8th pedal and a modified grip
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 8:02 pm
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Ed,
You're probably right. I have no KL's on my guitar and pedal 1 is very important. Your sugesstion of asking Anita would be a good one or Tommy Spurlock as he has the same setup.
Jim, I guess it's back to the drawing board. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 8:19 pm
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Jim you said
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| and no matter what it's not going to be as deadly accurate as modern high-tech steels |
Whilst that may be correct with regard to the very latest guitars , I find that that's not an issue if implemented like I've done it..
1. The fender most definitely does NOT suffer from 'Cabinet drop'
2. Whether there is little or a lot of slack in the cables the way the mechanism works takes cable slack out of the equation.
3. I've found my Fender 1000 and 400 to be equal to either of my 1970 Emmons D-10's with regard to pitch retention. (Which incidentally also require a workaround for the single raise and lower changer design)
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2006 9:24 pm
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Basil, your points are well taken...but mine have not been that accurate. I guess they're just not dialed-in perfectly yet. they are very playable though, and don't sound out of tune - and after years of playing "regular" guitar that's NEVER in tune, it seems close enough.
ebb - I apologize for my ignorance, but this one: "the rkr pedal in sneaky's tuning is the equivalent of the pete drake version of the a pedal f lever inversion http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007456.html and is available with the 8th pedal and a modified grip"...
....completely lost me. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean or how that thread applies to what I'm doing - it's not "who invented what" I'm worried about, it's getting the darned changes to operate. It HAS been done, so there has to be a way to do it. I thought I was getting a complete setup with the knee levers based on info I supplied, but found out that's not the case.
Russ - did your example mean you have to also push the #5 pedal to get the change? I'm still not clear on it.
[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 March 2006 at 09:25 PM.] |
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ebb
From:
nj
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 4:11 am
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| rkr gives an inversion of any grip using 1 2 4 5 6 8 at 2 frets above. p8 would give the same inversion for 2 4 5 on strings 2 4 6 at 4 frets above. tommy spurlock did not use this change when i saw him as it wasn't working properly then |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 4:58 am
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Jim, I've just checked the Sneaky Pete Kleinow's B6th copedent.. Those changes are NOT possible with a stock Fender 400/1000 changer system.. Somewhere there is a mistake in the assumption that this tuning was on a Fender 400...The 800/2000 changer CAN do it.
Are there ANY pictures ANYWHERE of the endplate and undercarriage of the guitar in question ? (Sneaky Pete Kleinow's)
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 5:19 am
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| Quote: |
| Donny - the problem is, though, that the knee lever has to pull *farther* than the pedal....so that idea doesn't work. |
So, if that's what you want (more pull on the lever), just put adjustable stops on the pedal cables, and then tune the knee lever at the endplate! It's not that big a deal, really. Any good mechanic or steel builder can do this, even using cables for everything. |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 5:20 am
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Jim,
I'm sure I'm not making myself clear. Here is all I was thinking on string 4:
RK Raise: +++
P5 Lower: -
P1 Put one loop on the raise and one on the
lower: ++
It should balance out the raise and the lower. But as Ed pointed out Pedal 1 is very important, so it may not work out right. The good news is you can try it and put it back in 5 min. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 5:31 am
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Basil, I talked to Anita and it is stock with the exception of some kind of stop for the strings in question. She's trying to get a picture of it for me, and thinks Duane Marrs (is that the right name?) made the parts.
ebb - thanks for trying, really, but you still lost me. I'm not sure what your trying to tell us.
Donny - That's correct - more pull on the knees. We're on the same track...with a stop on the pedal cable it seems like it should be simple. I just need to figure out how to make one with my limited fabrication skills (like - none. Need to find off-the-shelf-stuff and adapt it like I did with the lever stops).
Russ - Still confused. It stil seems like you mean two pedals have to e pushed to essentially make the math work. Right? Or does the change addition/subtraction work even without touching the other pedal? |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 5:39 am
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jim,
Just one pedal. When pedal one is pushed it is hooked to the raise and lower and addition/subtraction = the sum of the two. But, being that Anita says it is done with a stop...never mind. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 4:31 pm
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^^bump^^
I'm stalled. Aren't there any kind of off-the-shelf parts used to make rod stops that could also be attached to cables? Basil's general idea seemed right, but I'm not familiar with what was in the picture or how to get/hook up something like that. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2006 9:03 pm
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Another idea by email - a couple small crosshafts, each with a lever. Hook a cable from the turnbuckle, around the pulley and attach it to each lever with a hook, turnbuckle or something.; then another cable in the other direction, attached to the same lever, to a normal loop attached to the changer. Then use a stop to tune the pull and limit the travel.
That seems like the most solid and simplest system. Easier than the adding/subtracting of multiple raise/lower pulls (and I'm math phobic!!), less strain, and very similar visually to the knee levers, keeping it somewhat decent in appearance. Some parts I have, the rest are coming in I think. I can try the "L" bracket stop first since it's worked for other people, but if it seems not strong enough I'll have to find something heavier - what, I don't know.
Comments? |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2006 1:19 pm
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Getting closer - electronics are killer. It's VERY strong with both pickups on!
Just need to get the pedal stops worked out and it's ready except for a few cosmetic things.
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